Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

regarding the hilt or handle, those words are not really specific names: hulu for instance is head. a child has hulu too. Ukiran is the same; it is image or design. Sarong has Ukiran. Danganan is destruction. An epidemic is also danganan. I am not sure about dederan or jejeran. Among the non-muslim ivatans of northern tip of luzon, it means to circle. They have letter J in their language too.

"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir.

Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from.

That words like hulu (head) and ukiran (design?) have other meanings in the language in no way means they should be disregarded as legitimate ways to describe that object. That is, afterall, one of the ways language works, isn't it. Not every word in a language is completely unique to the object described.
I could be wrong, but i think i recall that "curiga" is one of the oldest recorded words for the keris from a pre-anglican source. By your own accounts the word "keris" wasn't anglicized until 1580. There is quite a bit of keris history that precedes that date, almost as much as comes after, so it seems a bit presumptuous to assume that the keris had no other name previous to this date. Keris has been the generally accepted term in modern times by people throughout the region (and world), but there were times when that word would be meaningless in certain parts of Indonesia where other terminology was in used. Keris has undoubtly won out as the preferred name simply because it is the name that was anglicized, not because it was either the original or more "correct" word for the object.
I also think that you will find that the same word in different parts of the region can have slightly different meanings. Sundang, for instance, can refer to a sword length kris in some areas, but is merely a word for sword in others and is applied to swords which are definitely not kris.
I think that in the end this name game is much more complex than you are making it out to be.
"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao.
I don't think anyone here would argue that the kalis did indeed develop from it's origins in the Jawa keris. As for okir on Moro kris, i would not say that it is that "rare". I see it often, though certain not on all kris.

[baganing_balyan]

Even curiga is not a specific term related to just Keris. Batik fabric too has "parang curiga"-- curlicue or snake-like design.

I think keris is specific for that kind of sword because of its use, meaning, and symbol being a court and ritual sword. hence, the word keras with many deep meanings describing that sword.

Most blades or swords don't have specific names-- they are basically different words from different dialects and languages with the same meaning-- sword. for instance, talwar is Hindi for sword. Sundang is also a Filipino word for sword. In short, a keris can be sundang or talwar depending on the language or dialect used, but sundang and talwar are not kerises.

In the philippines, a Keris or kalis can be called itak, taga, sundang the filipino words for sword, bolo, machete, and other that resemble to a sword. but in Muslim Mindanao it is kalis because it is not just a sword but a sword for ritual, courtly purpose, and social status. I think it is the same thing with keris, it is not just an ordinary sundang even if other dialects or groups call it as such.

I mentioned kalis as an evolved keris because there are still some people who think that kalis is a purely Islamic weapon or that it is purely of javanese origin. Some even think it is purely mindanaon, which is not.

Another thing is the redundancy in terms. Saying "talwar sword" "sundang sword" or "itak sword" are just wrong. But saying keris sword and naga sword are correct. Both keris and Naga identify, describe, and localize both swords according to symbol, meaning, design, form, and other cultural representation.

I don't think there is another term or word earlier than keris. Maybe there were words used for it but they meant sword not as specific names for a sword. They might have even called keris khadga, sanskrit for sword. Was khadga keris? not necessarily, but a khadga became a keris when specific functions, symbols, and meanings were ascribed to the latter. In other words, keris is khadga but khadga is not keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Even curiga is not a specific term related to just Keris. Batik fabric too has "parang curiga"-- curlicue or snake-like design.

These are interesting idea, but if you can't back them up with actual reference they are merely unproven theories. Do you have any references to back up what you say? Do you know, for instance that the use of "parang curiga" as a term in batik existed in the early days of keris when it was (at least in some accounts) referred to as curiga? Or is this batik term merely a more recent co-opting of the word curiga because it resembles an aspect of the keris? You have yet to provide any proof that keris is the original name for this blade. Can you direct us to any pre-anglicized literature that supports your position?
Certainly it would be incorrect to say sundang sword. It is just like saying sword sword. But in the case of Indonesian keris i would say that in most cases i would not refer to it as a keris sword. Mostly they are daggers, not really long enough to be considered swords.
BTW, as for origins, i doubt that you will find many people here who believe that the keris is originally an Islamic weapon. It is fairly common knowledge in these parts that it's origins are Javanese, with influences of an Indian nature. The keris developed when Jawa was a Hindu kingdom.

[A. G. Maisey]

This pursuit of playing with words almost seems to qualify as the ultimate "name game"---which can be fun, and applied in a structured way can possibly produce some enlightening results.However, rather than just haphazardly throw words around, it would be more beneficial if the words were given provenance by naming the language and period from which the word is taken.

For instance baganing tells us that the word "danganan" means "destruction". Perhaps it does in some language, but in Javanese it means "handle".

In Old Javanese, that is the form of Javanese that was in widespread use prior to reforms of the House of Mataram beginning in the 16th-17th centuries, the word "keris" did exist, as also did the word "curiga", however, the word "keras" seems not to appear in Old Javanese, nor does the word "dhuwung", which is Krama (high level) Javanese for "keris". This, of course, is to be expected, as the heirarchical levels of the Javanese language did not really develop until after the House of Mataram set out upon the path of attempting to establish its legitimacy.

barganing, you do have some interesting ideas, but truly, you need to apply some discipline to the structuring and validation of your ideas. I accept that you have already carried out some research, but you need to document that research, and then to structure your arguments in a logical fashion.

Please continue with what you are doing, but please continue in a way that will allow us to accept what you write.

[ward]

Not my area but at least baganing is thinking outside the box here.
By the way big pomels on yatagans is a late development earliest I saw was 18 century. Turkish ones if you can call it that from 16-17 century are small with no ears at all theres some in Topkapi museum so not sure how that influnced the Moro kris like you are saying. Anyway welcome

Ward

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

These are interesting idea, but if you can't back them up with actual reference they are merely unproven theories. Do you have any references to back up what you say? Do you know, for instance that the use of "parang curiga" as a term in batik existed in the early days of keris when it was (at least in some accounts) referred to as curiga? Or is this batik term merely a more recent co-opting of the word curiga because it resembles an aspect of the keris? You have yet to provide any proof that keris is the original name for this blade. Can you direct us to any pre-anglicized literature that supports your position?
Certainly it would be incorrect to say sundang sword. It is just like saying sword sword. But in the case of Indonesian keris i would say that in most cases i would not refer to it as a keris sword. Mostly they are daggers, not really long enough to be considered swords.
BTW, as for origins, i doubt that you will find many people here who believe that the keris is originally an Islamic weapon. It is fairly common knowledge in these parts that it's origins are Javanese, with influences of an Indian nature. The keris developed when Jawa was a Hindu kingdom.

I would either be a genius or a clairvoyant if i don't base my ideas on something. But that's not the case. On curiga, for instance, Jan Gonda wrote about the etymology of the word. I just don't find it important to quote him. I would rather go directly to my source-- sanskrit word etymology. Everyone who reads sanskrit knows that churika is a sanskrit for knife or dagger. even if curiga predated keris, it doesn't mean that it was a name for a blade. it was nothing but a javanese word for a knife or dagger.

As i said in my earlier post, I want my writings to be seminal ideas hoping that those who have access to related materials and resources for research can seriously look into my ideas.

for example: My mind tells me that keris came from kilich (turkish) and keras developed from keris but I have limited materials on ottoman influences in southeast asia.

Although I know that the way malay words with foreign influences evolved used the pattern of foreign word first, then literal meaning in local language, and then abstract meaning that still exists today.

kilich (sword in turkish) - kilis/Keris (sword or dagger) - keras (sharp or violent)

churika (knife in Sanskrit) - curika/curiga (knife) - curiga (suspicious)

I still believe that it's possible but I am not sure because I have no materials to prove that keris is from kilich. I hope though that serious keris researcher would look into the turkish/ottoman involvement in the evolution of keris.

The timeline also supports my belief. Late 1300's was the beginning of the ottoman and Islamic expansion. A star beside a crescent was used by the ottomans as image of Islam and adopted by muslims in southeast asia. late 1500's creese or kris entered the english dictionary.

I just don't assume when my sources are weak.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

The timeline also supports my belief. Late 1300's was the beginning of the ottoman and Islamic expansion. A star beside a crescent was used by the ottomans as image of Islam and adopted by muslims in southeast asia. late 1500's creese or kris entered the english dictionary.

I just don't assume when my sources are weak.

I am afraid that the timeline does not support your belief. When do you think the keris was actually developed in Jawa? It was long before the Ottoman and Islamic expansion. Why then would it have originally had a name that is derived from a Turkish source. Sorry, you aren't making sense to me.

[baganing_balyan]

keris, the sword, was already in Java during the rule of srivijayan empire.

Keris, the term, is the most problematic one. It has no etymology in sanskrit, hindi, or Tamil. So I am not really sure if it was also an Indo-Buddhist word.

That's why I said I am not sure because I have limited materials. However, I believe people began to use keris as a word around 1400, and before that, it had an indo-buddhist name-- maybe naga, curiga, or even kali-- I wish I could be sure. It's up to a serious researcher to look into it.

I even want to believe that keris came from kurusooli (Tamil short snake), then kurusu, then keris. Linguistically, that is an overstretch. Who knows? maybe there is evidence hiding somewhere.

[A. G. Maisey]

The proto-keris that we now refer to as the "Keris Buda" first appeared in monumental representations in 10th century Central Jawa.

By about the 14th century it had developed to the form that we know today.

In early Javanese literary works a number of different words are used to refer to the keris. Amongst these words we can find keris(or kris), curigo ( a literary usage), tewek (or twek), tuhuk, duhun, kadgo, panewek.

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Old Javanese there are a number of words that are associated with the keris:-

akris:- to wear or use a keris
anris and kinris:- to use a keris

then we have:- iris, hiris, aniris, iniris and kahiris, all of which can be understood as to cut or to slice.

taking account of the grammatic structure of Old Javanese there is a clear relationship between the word "iris":- to cut, and keris, a cutting weapon.

It may be argued that the keris is not a cutting weapon, but a stabbing weapon, however, in Old Javanese the distinction between the keris used as a cutting weapon, and the keris used as a stabbing weapon is shown by the use of "tewek", probably in the context of repeated stabbing. On the other hand, thrusts, or slower stabs appear to be denoted by use of the word "tuhuk". When the inference is to the keris as a cutting weapon, then only the word "kris" ( or a derivative) is used. The words used to refer to the keris in Old Javanese give an indication of the nature of the keris in the relative context. A similarity can be seen in the words used to refer to the keris in modern Javanese, where again, an indication is given by the word used, as to the nature of the keris in the relative context.

During the period of development of the keris to its modern form, Jawa was dominated by the Jawa-Hindu faith, which was not displaced by Islam until about 1400. Early Islamic penetration of Jawa did not come from Turkey, but was thought to have been principally from India and China, with some limited numbers of traders from Persia and surrounding areas.

In the 17th century there was certainly some contact between the court of Mataram and Turkey, but the word "kris" and its derivatives had already been in common use in Jawa for at least several hundred years by that time.

The word "kris", or "keris" is without any doubt at all an indigenous Javanese word, and did not enter the Javanese language from any middle eastern language.

baganing, I'm sorry, but your thinking is confused, your presentation is illogical, and you have not yet carried your research far enough, nor in the correct direction.

I do encourage you to continue your research; your approach is valid, your thoughts are original, but you do need to work harder at getting the connections and the logic right.

[baganing_balyan]

14th century Moroccan scholar/explorer Ibn Batuta wrote about a warrior princess of the kingdom between sumadra (sumatra) and china called talawisi, which I think was sulawesi. that was after sailing from India. If you look at the asian map, the route was not far from the majapahit area.

Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia.