The basics of keris understanding?

Jussi M. · 24th June 2008, 09:44 PM

Thank you David.

I´ve spent some time with the search function and browsing through the old postings here and the archives but as pretty much everything is new to me I am a bit dumbstruck and inpatient if you know what I mean

I have Solyom and Duuren incoming and have a feeling they will prove to be valuable investments indeed. I have plans for acquiring some Javanese kerises and wish to educate myself on that front. - Not that I know anything about specimens from out of Java either

Thank you for your help David, I will look onto those threads shortly.

Best,

J.

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2008, 12:34 AM

Thanks for the compliment Jussi, but in this discussion group I think that everybody's opinon carries equal weight, at least in respect of what deserves discussion, and what does not deserve discussion. It appears to me that the bulk of members have decided that any attempts to understand the keris are a waste of time and effort, and that it is sufficient simply to collect it.

I bow to the wisdom and wishes of the majority.

Although the notorious "good keris" thread did cover a lot of ground, if I review that thread, it seems to me that what it does is to provide a fairly usable set of guidelines for keris collectors based in the western world. I don't think it moves into the areas of "understanding" that this current thread seeks to explore. One could perhaps say that "good keris" allows a collector living in the western world to understand the parameters within which he can build a valid collection.

In fact, I don't think that the discussion that Jussi is seeking to open has ever been pursued within this Forum, past a few casual remarks. I see this present thread as an opportunity to improve the understanding of the many facets of the keris.

That understanding can vary from situation to situation. For instance, the understanding of students of the keris who are based in Malaysia, could well vary from the understanding of a student of the keris living in Central Jawa.

However, if as a group we are not interested in expanding our knowledge of these matters, then I suggest we just let this thread die a natural death and get on with the more import aspects of keris study, such as looking at pictures of handles, unusual scabbards, and the shadows of blades.

Specific to your query Jussi, the Surakarta blade form is essentially a very robust blade which gives the impression of strength and bravery, the features should be clearly expressed and deeply carved, and the tangguh indicators include a strong ada-ada, upright blumbangan and a ron dha that echoes the modern form of the Javanese letter dha.The dress is inclined to flamboyance.There is , of course, more to it than this, but this is probably already far too much for the level of interest that this thread has created.

David · 25th June 2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I bow to the wisdom and wishes of the majority.

I don't know Alan, i think perhaps you are being a little too harsh. The general silence does not necessarily speak to the wishes of the majority. It might be that for many the questions are a bit too intimidating or perhaps they just don't know what questions to ask. I would hope that in a situation like this that those among us with more experience like yourself might be willing to take the lead, as it were, and conduct this conversation towards the right direction instead of just throwing up ones arms without pushing the subject or digging deeper. I don't think that there is anyone among us who would not like to see this topic just a little bit clearer, but i don't think many of us even know where to start. While i certainly agree with you that everyone's opinion bears equal weight and consideration in this forum i think that youself and perhaps a few others on this forum actually have the accumulated knowledge necessary to get the ball truly rolling here.

A. G. Maisey · 25th June 2008, 01:27 AM

David, I'm not being harsh, I'm being gentle and accommodating.

I did close an earlier post with this:-

"---Quality is most certainly a very important factor in the appraisal of a keris, so, as a place to begin discussion, perhaps some of you may care to nominate those characteristics of a keris that for you speak of its quality."

Which was intended to get some sort of input so that we could explore possibilities and open discussion.

Yes, certainly I could simply put up what I've learnt, but that then becomes a lecture, not a discussion. Do we want "The World of the Keris According to Maisey"?

I think not. At least, I'm not prepared to simply put up endless posts setting forth the way I see things.

It becomes a different exercise entirely if various people nominate their own opinions, and we then contrast those opinions with the opinions of my teachers, and with my own. In any case, its not necessarily a Jawacentric set of values. There are a number of people here who are based in Singapore and Malaysia. These are areas closer to keris culture than anywhere in the western world. Their ideas and opinions can provide valuable contributions.

The idea is to attempt some sort of overall understanding, not just an understanding of one facet, taken from one perspective.

David · 25th June 2008, 04:21 AM

No Alan, i certainly don't expect you to lay out "The World of the Keris According to Maisey", though i am absolutely sure that i would personally learn a great deal from such a lecture. But i also don't think that you (or anyone) could possible post any information or theory on this forum without getting response and therefore discussion to follow. I just don't think most members know how to start such a discussion, that's all. You are right, it is not necessarily a Jawa-centric set of values, but if that is what you have to offer then that is a start. If the infamous "good keris" threads taught us anything it is that these guidelines will vary dependent upon the actual origin of the particular keris under discussion. I am fairly sure that if anyone puts out their opinion on these values that a conversation, not a lecture, will follow.

24th June 2008, 09:44 PM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Thank you David. I´ve spent some time with the search function and browsing through the old postings here and the archives but as pretty much everything is new to me I am a bit dumbstruck and inpatient if you know what I mean I have Solyom and Duuren incoming and have a feeling they will prove to be valuable investments indeed. I have plans for acquiring some Javanese kerises and wish to educate myself on that front. - Not that I know anything about specimens from out of Java either Thank you for your help David, I will look onto those threads shortly. Best, J. Last edited by Jussi M.; 24th June 2008 at 10:14 PM.

25th June 2008, 12:34 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Thanks for the compliment Jussi, but in this discussion group I think that everybody's opinon carries equal weight, at least in respect of what deserves discussion, and what does not deserve discussion. It appears to me that the bulk of members have decided that any attempts to understand the keris are a waste of time and effort, and that it is sufficient simply to collect it. I bow to the wisdom and wishes of the majority. Although the notorious "good keris" thread did cover a lot of ground, if I review that thread, it seems to me that what it does is to provide a fairly usable set of guidelines for keris collectors based in the western world. I don't think it moves into the areas of "understanding" that this current thread seeks to explore. One could perhaps say that "good keris" allows a collector living in the western world to understand the parameters within which he can build a valid collection. In fact, I don't think that the discussion that Jussi is seeking to open has ever been pursued within this Forum, past a few casual remarks. I see this present thread as an opportunity to improve the understanding of the many facets of the keris. That understanding can vary from situation to situation. For instance, the understanding of students of the keris who are based in Malaysia, could well vary from the understanding of a student of the keris living in Central Jawa. However, if as a group we are not interested in expanding our knowledge of these matters, then I suggest we just let this thread die a natural death and get on with the more import aspects of keris study, such as looking at pictures of handles, unusual scabbards, and the shadows of blades. Specific to your query Jussi, the Surakarta blade form is essentially a very robust blade which gives the impression of strength and bravery, the features should be clearly expressed and deeply carved, and the tangguh indicators include a strong ada-ada, upright blumbangan and a ron dha that echoes the modern form of the Javanese letter dha.The dress is inclined to flamboyance.There is , of course, more to it than this, but this is probably already far too much for the level of interest that this thread has created.

25th June 2008, 01:27 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	David, I'm not being harsh, I'm being gentle and accommodating. I did close an earlier post with this:- "---Quality is most certainly a very important factor in the appraisal of a keris, so, as a place to begin discussion, perhaps some of you may care to nominate those characteristics of a keris that for you speak of its quality." Which was intended to get some sort of input so that we could explore possibilities and open discussion. Yes, certainly I could simply put up what I've learnt, but that then becomes a lecture, not a discussion. Do we want "The World of the Keris According to Maisey"? I think not. At least, I'm not prepared to simply put up endless posts setting forth the way I see things. It becomes a different exercise entirely if various people nominate their own opinions, and we then contrast those opinions with the opinions of my teachers, and with my own. In any case, its not necessarily a Jawacentric set of values. There are a number of people here who are based in Singapore and Malaysia. These are areas closer to keris culture than anywhere in the western world. Their ideas and opinions can provide valuable contributions. The idea is to attempt some sort of overall understanding, not just an understanding of one facet, taken from one perspective.

25th June 2008, 04:21 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	No Alan, i certainly don't expect you to lay out "The World of the Keris According to Maisey", though i am absolutely sure that i would personally learn a great deal from such a lecture. But i also don't think that you (or anyone) could possible post any information or theory on this forum without getting response and therefore discussion to follow. I just don't think most members know how to start such a discussion, that's all. You are right, it is not necessarily a Jawa-centric set of values, but if that is what you have to offer then that is a start. If the infamous "good keris" threads taught us anything it is that these guidelines will vary dependent upon the actual origin of the particular keris under discussion. I am fairly sure that if anyone puts out their opinion on these values that a conversation, not a lecture, will follow.