Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Some people think that connecting Mindanao to Ottoman is outrageous. I have found texts that support my contention.

I have also found a photo of a moro armor with arabic/quranic inscription-- a warrior tradition of the Ottomans. I will write a post about them soon.

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

thanks again.

[A. G. Maisey]

I will not buy into a discussion involving keris + kalis, however, there is now no doubt at all that the Javanese keris is of uniquely Javanese origin, from Indian souces.

From Jawa the keris spread into other parts of S.E. Asia, and in these other places developed its own character. In some instances it probably maintained a form closer to its origins than the developed form of the Javanese keris.

Of course the keris is not of Malay origin.

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Some people think that connecting Mindanao to Ottoman is outrageous. I have found texts that support my contention.

I have also found a photo of a moro armor with arabic/quranic inscription-- a warrior tradition of the Ottomans. I will write a post about them soon.

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

thanks again.

Mabuhay,

I hope to see your further writings in this regards, and also your references to back it up. It's enlightening to read your articles, but at the same time it makes me wonder from where you get the sources to come to your conclusion. Anyway, I admire your works..... in fact I admire all works as far as kris / keris are concerned.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

These are all words that have found that have been applied to describe the keris: kris, kres, kress, curiga, dhuwung, wangkingan, kadutan, kedutan, tappi, selle, gayang, karieh, kadga, tosan aji.

Various names for the keris hilt: hulu, ukiran, dederan, jejeran, danganan

As far as i can tell most of these names do not stem from outside influences, but from within the region of origin. While a few like kris, kres and kress are obviously linked linguistically most are not.
The word for keris changes depending upon what island you are on and even what level of speech you are discussing it on a given island. This is not due to outside influences of it's origin.

[baganing_balyan]

Although my interest is primarily about kalis or mindanaoan kris, I have found interesting etymologies and folklore that point the very origin of kris back to the temples of southern and northern India.

A malaysian website has accused me of assuming without bases. That's not really the case.

for instance: when I said naga (snake) sword orginally evolved from nair malabar. I analyzed the sanskrit etymology of naga, nagar, nayar, and nair. I also checked the snake-based belief system of the nayar or nair people. I also went back to Mahabharata, a hindu epic, to check the relationship between garuda, the bird-man, and the nagas, the snake people.

I did not include them in my blog since there is no obvious philippine connection.

nayar or nair people believe in snake gods. nagar or naga (snake) came from that belief system and from the folklore of those believers.

the nayars and nairs belong to a higher cast-- probably Brahmin since nayar is also related to temple-- thus, nair malabar, the temple sword.

Buddhists too have a concept of naga-- power and protection. There are images of buddha hovered by cobras or serpents.

Any place reached by Buddhism, there is a concept and image of naga-- thailand, cambodia, vietnam, indonesia, malaysia, but not philippines. There is no known pre-spanish buddhist account in the philippines. that's the reason why the handles of mindanaon krises are different-- no indo-buddhist handles depicting garuda or naga.

People ask me for bibliography, i am writing a blog not a paper. My only hope is to produce a seminal idea that will hopefully challenge researchers all over who have access and resources to expound more.

I use Mahabaratha and ramayana for instance to understand Indian folklore. Do i need to write even the name of the translator? I don't think so. I expect though for anyone interested to check the epics. They can even be read online.

I just don't understand why I often read that kris is not of malay origin but of javanese. Aren't javanese malay? Javanese language is austronesian related to other austronesian languages in southeast asia like Tagalog of the Philippines.

There are also temples in North India where the images of naga sword predate the javanese temple reliefs by centuries. In an archaeological point of view, that is enough an indication that keris could come from naga of northern India. The fact also that Indo-buddhist empires were established in Java, the idea that keris is of Indo-Buddhist origin is reinforced.

Thanks a lot.

baganing-balyan

[baganing_balyan]

in addition:

It would be easy to assume that keris is from kilis and kilich, but i have no basis to base that from since I am not sure if ch can be s and L can be R in early languages of java and sumatra. One thing I am sure though is that kalimantan is not the same as karimantan.

if R and L can be interchangeably used, then I assume it is a later evolution as a linguistic pattern. since etymological analysis suggests that kalimantan is from kali-- not kari-- and mantan. there are no malay words such as kaliman, liman, and limantan, so liman cannot be a root word.

I do, however, use keras because its meanings symbolize the form and use of keris. Do I have a proof? Linguistic etymology or word relationship is my proof in the absence of texts and written history.

if later I find an evidence that indeed keris is from kilis/kilich, then keras, as a word, evolved from keris.

I just don't think that we cannot imply from a sound fact to reconstruct history.

[A. G. Maisey]

Baganing, some of your ideas are interesting, but I do feel you still have a little way to go.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

These are all words that have found that have been applied to describe the keris: kris, kres, kress, curiga, dhuwung, wangkingan, kadutan, kedutan, tappi, selle, gayang, karieh, kadga, tosan aji.

Various names for the keris hilt: hulu, ukiran, dederan, jejeran, danganan

As far as i can tell most of these names do not stem from outside influences, but from within the region of origin. While a few like kris, kres and kress are obviously linked linguistically most are not.
The word for keris changes depending upon what island you are on and even what level of speech you are discussing it on a given island. This is not due to outside influences of it's origin.

regarding the hilt or handle, those words are not really specific names: hulu for instance is head. a child has hulu too. Ukiran is the same; it is image or design. Sarong has Ukiran. Danganan is destruction. An epidemic is also danganan. I am not sure about dederan or jejeran. Among the non-muslim ivatans of northern tip of luzon, it means to circle. They have letter J in their language too.

"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir.

Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

regarding the hilt or handle, those words are not really specific names: hulu for instance is head. a child has hulu too. Ukiran is the same; it is image or design. Sarong has Ukiran. Danganan is destruction. An epidemic is also danganan. I am not sure about dederan or jejeran. Among the non-muslim ivatans of northern tip of luzon, it means to circle. They have letter J in their language too.

"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir.

Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from.

That words like hulu (head) and ukiran (design?) have other meanings in the language in no way means they should be disregarded as legitimate ways to describe that object. That is, afterall, one of the ways language works, isn't it. Not every word in a language is completely unique to the object described.
I could be wrong, but i think i recall that "curiga" is one of the oldest recorded words for the keris from a pre-anglican source. By your own accounts the word "keris" wasn't anglicized until 1580. There is quite a bit of keris history that precedes that date, almost as much as comes after, so it seems a bit presumptuous to assume that the keris had no other name previous to this date. Keris has been the generally accepted term in modern times by people throughout the region (and world), but there were times when that word would be meaningless in certain parts of Indonesia where other terminology was in used. Keris has undoubtly won out as the preferred name simply because it is the name that was anglicized, not because it was either the original or more "correct" word for the object.
I also think that you will find that the same word in different parts of the region can have slightly different meanings. Sundang, for instance, can refer to a sword length kris in some areas, but is merely a word for sword in others and is applied to swords which are definitely not kris.
I think that in the end this name game is much more complex than you are making it out to be.
"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao.
I don't think anyone here would argue that the kalis did indeed develop from it's origins in the Jawa keris. As for okir on Moro kris, i would not say that it is that "rare". I see it often, though certain not on all kris.

[baganing_balyan]

Even curiga is not a specific term related to just Keris. Batik fabric too has "parang curiga"-- curlicue or snake-like design.

I think keris is specific for that kind of sword because of its use, meaning, and symbol being a court and ritual sword. hence, the word keras with many deep meanings describing that sword.

Most blades or swords don't have specific names-- they are basically different words from different dialects and languages with the same meaning-- sword. for instance, talwar is Hindi for sword. Sundang is also a Filipino word for sword. In short, a keris can be sundang or talwar depending on the language or dialect used, but sundang and talwar are not kerises.

In the philippines, a Keris or kalis can be called itak, taga, sundang the filipino words for sword, bolo, machete, and other that resemble to a sword. but in Muslim Mindanao it is kalis because it is not just a sword but a sword for ritual, courtly purpose, and social status. I think it is the same thing with keris, it is not just an ordinary sundang even if other dialects or groups call it as such.

I mentioned kalis as an evolved keris because there are still some people who think that kalis is a purely Islamic weapon or that it is purely of javanese origin. Some even think it is purely mindanaon, which is not.

Another thing is the redundancy in terms. Saying "talwar sword" "sundang sword" or "itak sword" are just wrong. But saying keris sword and naga sword are correct. Both keris and Naga identify, describe, and localize both swords according to symbol, meaning, design, form, and other cultural representation.

I don't think there is another term or word earlier than keris. Maybe there were words used for it but they meant sword not as specific names for a sword. They might have even called keris khadga, sanskrit for sword. Was khadga keris? not necessarily, but a khadga became a keris when specific functions, symbols, and meanings were ascribed to the latter. In other words, keris is khadga but khadga is not keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Even curiga is not a specific term related to just Keris. Batik fabric too has "parang curiga"-- curlicue or snake-like design.

These are interesting idea, but if you can't back them up with actual reference they are merely unproven theories. Do you have any references to back up what you say? Do you know, for instance that the use of "parang curiga" as a term in batik existed in the early days of keris when it was (at least in some accounts) referred to as curiga? Or is this batik term merely a more recent co-opting of the word curiga because it resembles an aspect of the keris? You have yet to provide any proof that keris is the original name for this blade. Can you direct us to any pre-anglicized literature that supports your position?
Certainly it would be incorrect to say sundang sword. It is just like saying sword sword. But in the case of Indonesian keris i would say that in most cases i would not refer to it as a keris sword. Mostly they are daggers, not really long enough to be considered swords.
BTW, as for origins, i doubt that you will find many people here who believe that the keris is originally an Islamic weapon. It is fairly common knowledge in these parts that it's origins are Javanese, with influences of an Indian nature. The keris developed when Jawa was a Hindu kingdom.

[A. G. Maisey]

This pursuit of playing with words almost seems to qualify as the ultimate "name game"---which can be fun, and applied in a structured way can possibly produce some enlightening results.However, rather than just haphazardly throw words around, it would be more beneficial if the words were given provenance by naming the language and period from which the word is taken.

For instance baganing tells us that the word "danganan" means "destruction". Perhaps it does in some language, but in Javanese it means "handle".

In Old Javanese, that is the form of Javanese that was in widespread use prior to reforms of the House of Mataram beginning in the 16th-17th centuries, the word "keris" did exist, as also did the word "curiga", however, the word "keras" seems not to appear in Old Javanese, nor does the word "dhuwung", which is Krama (high level) Javanese for "keris". This, of course, is to be expected, as the heirarchical levels of the Javanese language did not really develop until after the House of Mataram set out upon the path of attempting to establish its legitimacy.

barganing, you do have some interesting ideas, but truly, you need to apply some discipline to the structuring and validation of your ideas. I accept that you have already carried out some research, but you need to document that research, and then to structure your arguments in a logical fashion.

Please continue with what you are doing, but please continue in a way that will allow us to accept what you write.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

These are interesting idea, but if you can't back them up with actual reference they are merely unproven theories. Do you have any references to back up what you say? Do you know, for instance that the use of "parang curiga" as a term in batik existed in the early days of keris when it was (at least in some accounts) referred to as curiga? Or is this batik term merely a more recent co-opting of the word curiga because it resembles an aspect of the keris? You have yet to provide any proof that keris is the original name for this blade. Can you direct us to any pre-anglicized literature that supports your position?
Certainly it would be incorrect to say sundang sword. It is just like saying sword sword. But in the case of Indonesian keris i would say that in most cases i would not refer to it as a keris sword. Mostly they are daggers, not really long enough to be considered swords.
BTW, as for origins, i doubt that you will find many people here who believe that the keris is originally an Islamic weapon. It is fairly common knowledge in these parts that it's origins are Javanese, with influences of an Indian nature. The keris developed when Jawa was a Hindu kingdom.

I would either be a genius or a clairvoyant if i don't base my ideas on something. But that's not the case. On curiga, for instance, Jan Gonda wrote about the etymology of the word. I just don't find it important to quote him. I would rather go directly to my source-- sanskrit word etymology. Everyone who reads sanskrit knows that churika is a sanskrit for knife or dagger. even if curiga predated keris, it doesn't mean that it was a name for a blade. it was nothing but a javanese word for a knife or dagger.

As i said in my earlier post, I want my writings to be seminal ideas hoping that those who have access to related materials and resources for research can seriously look into my ideas.

for example: My mind tells me that keris came from kilich (turkish) and keras developed from keris but I have limited materials on ottoman influences in southeast asia.

Although I know that the way malay words with foreign influences evolved used the pattern of foreign word first, then literal meaning in local language, and then abstract meaning that still exists today.

kilich (sword in turkish) - kilis/Keris (sword or dagger) - keras (sharp or violent)

churika (knife in Sanskrit) - curika/curiga (knife) - curiga (suspicious)

I still believe that it's possible but I am not sure because I have no materials to prove that keris is from kilich. I hope though that serious keris researcher would look into the turkish/ottoman involvement in the evolution of keris.

The timeline also supports my belief. Late 1300's was the beginning of the ottoman and Islamic expansion. A star beside a crescent was used by the ottomans as image of Islam and adopted by muslims in southeast asia. late 1500's creese or kris entered the english dictionary.

I just don't assume when my sources are weak.