keris blade for comment.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys. Tom thanks for your kind words i realy enjoyed doing this ...ill post more pics when i get the gold back on it.

BSMStar thanks for the cool info very helpful ...now ill have to buy another old trade blade to have a play with

Hi Nachesh "i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture"
I see where you are comeing from here ..do you know what the traditional methods would have been?id love to know and i was hopeing someone with the knowhow would post and share the knowledge.I cant realy see how my methods could be that diffrent ...for sandpaper they would have just used a similar grade of stone and they presumably would have used arsenic and acid to etch it?

"Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture."I tried to be as respectful as i could believe me[ i put alot of time into makeing the staining process as traditional as i could] ....and i was perfectly aware that i could have just sanded the blade in five min,s useing a sanding pad on a angle grinder and then polished it useing a metal polishing wheel.But i chose to spend a day and a half sanding it by hand with 6 grades of sandpaper to near mirror polish[not an easy task i can tell you my hands were killing me at the end ].The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves]
I am confident this method will work for any keris blade ive stained 2 other blades 1 before and 1 after and both responded equally well, it just a matter of how long you leave the blade in the solution[the longer you leave it the darker it becomes].Its not rocket science if you ask me the real secret to a good looking blade is how well it was forged originaly[if the beauty is there then the etch and stain will bring it out]

[nechesh]

Hi Smashy. I wasn't really questioning your sanding techniques. Traditionally a Bali blade would be polished though i am not particularly certain how this is actually done. As for your staining process, i give you kudos for grinding up your own from realgar. From what i know about the process the arsenic isn't used in the cleaning stage though. Usually that is done first and then a mixture of arsenic and lime juice is used to stain. Your method seemed a bit unorthodox, but if it worked.... It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways (for the spirit of the keris) and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I admire your enterprise, but i don't think battery acid is for me.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by nechesh

It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways

Hi nechesh,

First I would like to address that different acids would react differently with different substances. It is a matter of selecting the best acid for the job... To me, harshness is more of a degree of concentration or dilution than which acid is being used (in this case). Notice the concentrations I am suggesting. As to rust removal, I believe I stated in extreme cases (in other words, its already "junk"), and even then, dilution is an option I would suggest (always start with a less aggressive solution).

I can fully understand the Captain's position on what to do with blade that is less than "prime." Being a Japanese sword collector, one is always faces with the dilemma... is it valuable enough to sent it to Japan and have it re-polished at over $100 an inch (plus furniture... so you can rap up $3,000 to $5,000 into a sword real fast) or do something else (especially if the blade is only worth $500 even after being polished).... I have a hand made blade from around 1910, the Japanese will not accept for polish because it is not from the Samurai period (its their law). Now what do you do?

I would not take a "do it yourself" approach with an expensive Pusaka... but on a "reject" piece that I have nothing to lose.... It won't be the Indonesian way and it should not compete with their way, but as a last resort to "save" or bring "new life" to a piece, I think it is worth the experiment rather than shove it in a drawer to let it rust away. Who knows what we may learn? As for the better blades, I agree with you nechesh... let it be done the correct and traditional way.

I will try to post a picture of what can happen if one gets too aggressive with acid. It is a crying shame.

[BSMStar]

Fair warning for you faint of heart... do not look at the following image... acid burns... and can destroy a Keris!

[capt.smash]

Holy smoke dude what happened there? Did you do it or is it an example you have seen?

[Rick]

Of an OD on acid .

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by capt.smash

Holy smoke dude what happened there? Did you do it or is it an example you have seen?

Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster.

What someone will do (and end up ruining) for money.

On the other hand Captain, you are trying to "clean up" a blade, not age it. You are trying to bring it back to its old glory, not create a fake glory for it. This will not happen (what happened to that blade) with acids unless it is through ignorance or intent (in other words, they mean to do it) or both.

People are going to try this (restoring blades); I hate to see ignorance ruining what can be good blades. At least we can say, "start small and do the least possible" and offer a little guidance. As for intent... (I don't think I can voice my opinion on the forum).

[rasdan]

[QUOTE=BSMStar]Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster.
QUOTE]

Like what happened in Dr. Demento's "Monster Mash".

"I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld on an eery sight,
For my keris on the slab began to rise,
And suddenly to my suprise..."

[nechesh]

Sorry Tom, i can assure you that there is absolutely NO bitterness or anger in my commentary, towards you or anyone else participating in this thread. Obviously i misunderstood your meaning, but if you re-read your statement again, perhaps you can see that the sentence structure you used could lend itself to my interpretation. I seriously had NO intent to twist your words for the sake of an argument. I had NO intent nor reason to attack you. I must also say that while i can accept the responsibilty for my own misunderstandings, i in no way am willing to consider myself representative of those who choose not to speak on this forum, nor do i take responsibility for any more than the words i actually wrote. You go on to suggest that:
"So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible."
I agree, so why would you be reading between my lines looking for anger and bitterness that does not exist? You have not threatened my paradigm with any great truths, i assure you; truth is relative anyway, both yours and mine, and there is no use getting one's panties in a twist about them.
I agree with Rick that if we need further clarification and understanding that we should take it to PM, but for the record i did feel the need to address your comments in a public forum.Once again, sorry for any misunderstanding.

[tom hyle]

Though (perhaps for reasons of brevity/editorial clarity) Rick's recap left me hanging on them, both BSMStar (who posted the skeleton pic) and Battara had also expressed concerns in the matter, as I have already said. As far as a simple misunderstanding goes, hey, no problem, and if the shoes even do fit, that doesn't mean you have to keep wearing them (that, and not to be insulting or smartassed, BTW, was why I said it may not be reasonable or possible to not read into people's words, for instance; I noticed I'd done what I didn't like, and couldn't see any way entirely not to do it; so I thought I'd at least point out the inconsistency.....); I don't think it's clear to....maybe anyone else.....that I actually, really was not addressing nechesh and his concerns particular per se as such, but the world at large and its concerns, and that seems like the only fact I haven't already made clear about the matter; seems clear to me. No offense taken, no offense intended; no harm, no foul. That's my last public word on that.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Fair warning for you faint of heart... do not look at the following image... acid burns... and can destroy a Keris!

OUCH!!! I took too much acid once back in the mid '70s, but that's another story.....

[Battara]

Those two are acid trips I don't want to take!

When it comes to etching blades, I do feel that when in doubt, less is more (and I do a lot of etching).

[Battara]

Those two are acid trips I don't want to take!

When it comes to etching blades, I do feel that when in doubt, less is more (and I do a lot of etching).

And in the case of my Balinese keris, I have left it alone (thank you forumites for your advise). If it ain't broke, don't break it anymore (especially in my case). On the other hand, nice job Smashy!

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by capt.smash

The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves]

Captain,

I would add a word of caution using (such as car) battery acid... depending on the age of the battery, the acid can easily "burn" your skin. Try some on concrete and you will see what I mean. I recommend using the proper safety equipment (rubber gloves and glasses for you eyes), I would hate to hear about a fellow forumite being injured by acid of any kind.

As to the question should this be done or is it an improvement... it is a difficult and personal call that depends on the piece needing restoration, its condition and the skill of the person doing the restoration. I may cringe at some of the methods uses here, but if the Captain is happy and the results are good...

I do not believe we (who are not trained in the correct cultural methodology) can improve what was done before (at best it is modification, not an improvement). All that we can "improve" is the appearance that is personally pleasing verses its current condition. Is this the right thing to do? I believe this is at the heart of your question nechesh, a difficult question that depends on many elements I think.

[tom hyle]

Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos.

[nechesh]

Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were.