steel in african weapons

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

ausjulius

I really can't explain why since you have put holes in my hot and humid theory . Most of the swords I have from that region of Africa are under 24 inches long the symetrical ones are made more for stabbing rather than hacking. Maybe they preferred spears to swords as their main battle weapon they are easier to produce and do not need to hard be tempered? It could be just a cultural thing or maybe they did not have access to large amonts of good quality Iron ore? All I know is that their weapons were very effective for what they were designed to do. I think if you studied how these tribes fought, battle tactics and such it may shed some light on the subject. From what I can remember Zulus for years fought by having there warriors take turns throwing light weight spears at each other from a distance until Shaka came up with the larger heavier bladed stabbing spears and close quarter combat tactics similar to what the Romans used with their gladius and shields.

Lew

yes i think heat was not it..
i would say cultural..
from what i understand the african iron mostly has alot of impurities in it so i guess this is where the chipping and bent or soft blades and such comes from..

yes it appears clubs , spears and sheilds were the main desired items in combat in this area.
im interested if the ruling classes took part in combat or were they only observing, as generaly a refinment of weapons and the use of armour comes in a society where this is common, (people incharge dont like to get hurt )


still im interested about the tools they used ,
does anyone have any pictures of the equiptment of a 19th centuary blacksmith of this area?

(ah also speeking of the celtic and viking weapons and the lamination,i have sp[oken some time back to somebody who was involved in examining these ill look to get a picture of the blade, i belive some were polished and the laminations shows)

[Lew]

Look at this


http://www.newscientist.com/article/...can-forge.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=phg...m=11&ct=result

[fearn]

So far as short blades vs. long blades, I think the problem is the size of the anvil. I know that two-handed swords (either European or Japanese) were hard to make, and hard to temper properly, because they were often too long for the forge. If you've got a small forge, short blades are much easier to make.

Ditto with complex shapes and tempering. Something with complicated curves and cutouts is going to heat unevenly, and it's going to be hard to temper evenly. I would expect perhaps spot hardening (as on a kukri edge) at best.

One problem we haven't discussed is the issue of history. Most of the African blades we see are post-colonial in origin, and most (not all!) were not produced for war. Here's an analogy. Imagine that the only European swords you saw were produced around 1900. How would you judge European sword culture? Probably, you'd figure that swords were minor and ceremonial weapons, as all the blades you could find were badly made (compared to, say, a 14th century sword) and poorly used. Because Africa doesn't have a great historical record, it's somewhat hard to judge how good African swords were or could be. All we see are the modern ones.

Just a thought,

F

[Tim Simmons]

I would have bought this book but have my eyes on other things. I have snatched this picture though.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=025

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by fearn

So far as short blades vs. long blades, I think the problem is the size of the anvil. I know that two-handed swords (either European or Japanese) were hard to make, and hard to temper properly, because they were often too long for the forge. If you've got a small forge, short blades are much easier to make.

Ditto with complex shapes and tempering. Something with complicated curves and cutouts is going to heat unevenly, and it's going to be hard to temper evenly. I would expect perhaps spot hardening (as on a kukri edge) at best.

One problem we haven't discussed is the issue of history. Most of the African blades we see are post-colonial in origin, and most (not all!) were not produced for war. Here's an analogy. Imagine that the only European swords you saw were produced around 1900. How would you judge European sword culture? Probably, you'd figure that swords were minor and ceremonial weapons, as all the blades you could find were badly made (compared to, say, a 14th century sword) and poorly used. Because Africa doesn't have a great historical record, it's somewhat hard to judge how good African swords were or could be. All we see are the modern ones.

Just a thought,

F

hmm first to the anvil.. i disagree.
look for exsample at the size and complexed awkward shapes these african weapons come in,, they were using a crude anvil to make these, these shapes are much much harder to form that a european or japanese blade shape which is very simple by comparison, apsecialy the japanese blade.

a good exsample of good tempering is blades made fomr semi nomadic groups in borneo..
thes epeople use very crud tools but the treatment and finish of their wepaons is very impressive for teh tools they used,, when you look at old weapons of their from 18th and 19th centuary which were collected they are very well hardened and made.. but they had much less resources and no more complex tools that in africa,
just good technique,
african blades are hard to make, compared to a simple stirght blade.
and would take alot of work to produce,
the poor heat treatment and hardening is comon just the same in simple tools and knvies as in complexed tools and knives , it is not the shape,
although no doubt it would be worse in more complexed wepaons,

id say you can find many many african blades from the 19th centuary and quite alot from the 18th centuary and the styles are similar as is the quality.
i thin ingeneral most swords were not used for combat,,
but they ust have used some as there is accounts of them doing so ,

a sword made around 1900 for military use is a cheaply made functional item..
... its use is instantly apparent .. and it is designed for a function,

the afircan swords ive seen ive never been able to see any use for any of them,
the masi knives yes, they are a multi tool basucaly in the style of their spears.
the swords of ethopia yes and many appear to be use and had a specific technique to use them,
but the congo area of affica,, the "african" africa,
swords just, seemed to be...... mostly decorative,, or....... made more for a shape that for a use,
even the small galdius type swords they have no guard and no pommel cap and the handle is just a hunk of green wood pushed into the hand and peen over, mostly the handles are broken or split,
if these were being used so often then i would exspect them to use metal in the guard and pommel, and even atlease finish the wood well and maybe use a better wood,

it is interesting no doubt the swords held some cultural importance for rank and power, but how important if at all were they in combat,
the mosy afirican spears and clubs although routhly made are rather fucntional items that are made for a task that is apparent when you see them
the same goes for bows,
but when it comes to swords,,
"klingonish" comes to mind :P

however ,, i realy wounder how old these odd styles are, and was there some stlyes before that that were more simple and more functional??

also , im interested,.....
has ther ebeen any study as to when the sword came into africa and what styles came and what part did the arrive first.
as it realy is clear the concept of a "sword" is something people learn from one groups to the next. hence the different types in earily history spreading around..

Tim, thanks looks like an interesting book ,
however the individuial in the picture is mostlikeliy a moslem frim the north of this region near camaroon and nigeria ,e ct ect,, and not form the southern non arab influenced areas,, hence the horse and the armor. still even this is interesting, as i wounder why it never spread further south,

realy somebody must have a closer look at all this are africa seems to be rather under researched,
and it is interesting to have some information on these things,

[Lew]

I think most of the African longer swords from the Congo were more status symbols than actual weapons. Some of their shapes are not really that practical in combat. Spears,clubs and bow and arrow were probably their best weapons and the dagger for real up close encounters. There are a few exceptions though such as in this sword. Heavy blade with a very well made point. Many tribes often used axes in war such as the two pictured below. The point here is that these weapons were developed based on the type of warfare that was common at that time and since the other tribes were not developing any new forging or heat treatment techniques that were producing substantionally superior weapons than there was no need for an arms race to make better weapons as was apparent in the Asia,Europe and the Mideast. Btw the viking sword was a complex wonderful piece of steel but was very expensive to produce and was quite costly to the owner to afford. The viking weapon of choice was the spear and the lowly axe which had a simple Iron head axes were easy and cheap to make. Battle field weapons evolve due to adjustments to the enemies tactics and weapons. In Japan the use of the straight double edged sword was abandoned sometime after 1276 after they realized that it was not very effective against the invading Mongols and created the tachi/katana or curved sword which was more effective. The style of the Japanese sword has changed very little from 1300-1800s because it did the job it was designed to do and it did it well. The same goes for African weapons the smiths just did not need to improve their techniques what they had did the job. Necessity is the mother of invention

Lew

[Tim Simmons]

This is a nice weapon. The beak is 26cm long, not a toy and anybody could pick it up and fight with it. So you see some super things yes?. Lew and I have done so well without Danny, Freddy, Luc and others sure there is more to follow huh

[Adam Alante]

Originally Posted by ausjulius
the quilted armour comes form the middle east and arived very late..

And the same goes for quilt armor. Cloth armor has been apart of African warfare (spanning across many cultures) for as far back as they can remember. This armor is wrongly attributed only to the northern Sudanese Islamic peoples of Africa.

Originally Posted by ausjulius
from what i understand the african iron mostly has alot of impurities in it so i guess this is where the chipping and bent or soft blades and such comes from..

Actually, the continent of Africa produced some of the best iron in the world. You should check out Peter Schmidt's The Culture and Technology of African Iron Production.

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hmm first to the anvil.. i disagree.
look for exsample at the size and complexed awkward shapes these african weapons come in,, they were using a crude anvil to make these, these shapes are much much harder to form that a european or japanese blade shape which is very simple by comparison, apsecialy the japanese blade.

a good exsample of good tempering is blades made fomr semi nomadic groups in borneo..
thes epeople use very crud tools but the treatment and finish of their wepaons is very impressive for teh tools they used,, when you look at old weapons of their from 18th and 19th centuary which were collected they are very well hardened and made.. but they had much less resources and no more complex tools that in africa,
just good technique,
african blades are hard to make, compared to a simple stirght blade.
and would take alot of work to produce,
the poor heat treatment and hardening is comon just the same in simple tools and knvies as in complexed tools and knives , it is not the shape,
although no doubt it would be worse in more complexed wepaons,

id say you can find many many african blades from the 19th centuary and quite alot from the 18th centuary and the styles are similar as is the quality.
i thin ingeneral most swords were not used for combat,,
but they ust have used some as there is accounts of them doing so ,

a sword made around 1900 for military use is a cheaply made functional item..
... its use is instantly apparent .. and it is designed for a function,

the afircan swords ive seen ive never been able to see any use for any of them,
the masi knives yes, they are a multi tool basucaly in the style of their spears.
the swords of ethopia yes and many appear to be use and had a specific technique to use them,
but the congo area of affica,, the "african" africa,
swords just, seemed to be...... mostly decorative,, or....... made more for a shape that for a use,
even the small galdius type swords they have no guard and no pommel cap and the handle is just a hunk of green wood pushed into the hand and peen over, mostly the handles are broken or split,
if these were being used so often then i would exspect them to use metal in the guard and pommel, and even atlease finish the wood well and maybe use a better wood,

it is interesting no doubt the swords held some cultural importance for rank and power, but how important if at all were they in combat,
the mosy afirican spears and clubs although routhly made are rather fucntional items that are made for a task that is apparent when you see them
the same goes for bows,
but when it comes to swords,,
"klingonish" comes to mind :P

however ,, i realy wounder how old these odd styles are, and was there some stlyes before that that were more simple and more functional??

also , im interested,.....
has ther ebeen any study as to when the sword came into africa and what styles came and what part did the arrive first.
as it realy is clear the concept of a "sword" is something people learn from one groups to the next. hence the different types in earily history spreading around..

Tim, thanks looks like an interesting book ,
however the individuial in the picture is mostlikeliy a moslem frim the north of this region near camaroon and nigeria ,e ct ect,, and not form the southern non arab influenced areas,, hence the horse and the armor. still even this is interesting, as i wounder why it never spread further south,

realy somebody must have a closer look at all this are africa seems to be rather under researched,
and it is interesting to have some information on these things,

I disagree with your anvil theory. I have been known to forge on a good smooth hard stone anvil. And stone anvils have been used throughout history all over the world.

Regarding the poor quality of the Congo area weapons you are used to seeing... This is because the African weapons from the Congo regions you've seen are ceremonial and never meant for combat. All you would have to do is ask an African from that region and they will tell you so. I touch on this topic a lot on my website.

And in the case of metal guards and pommels, that is a functional aspect turned cultural used when the sword hilt needed to be peened in the absence of powerful glues and/or high quality wood. Have you ever seen Philippine or Indonesian weapons? They often have wooden hilts. Some peened, sometimes not. By the way, there is no "african" Africa. There's only Africa.

Lastly, I would like to point out to all that laminated construction and pattern welding are not immediate signs of quality. The origin behind the ingenuous invention of laminated construction and pattern welding was the pursuit of survival when man was faced with poorer quality iron and could not make a strong enough homogenous blade from that iron. The magnificent Japanese sword blade (which I have been in love with for years) was truly born out of a survival situation and is a well executed response to the lack of quality iron.
Wootz is known for it's great strength and amazing cutting ability. And it's homogeneous. One piece of steel. With amazing tempering creating hard and soft spots everywhere through out the blade.

There's so much more that can be covered when involving Africa, but I must close as I am running short of time right now.

I truly hope that I haven't offended anyone. My intentions were to inform and shed new light on this discussion. I really appreciate this forum as an excellent place to come and discuss world history with many different people interested in the same things.

Thank you all and have a nice day.