Visayan Weapons Study

[Federico]

Beyond geographic vs cultural/ethnic denotations, temporal periodization could help further classify items, particularly in a geographic sense. Particularly for weapons that cannot be classified via a certain ethnic group, a temporal/geographic monicker may be more helpful? Particularly since internal migration was somewhat limited and more traceable pre-American occupation (eg. aside from individual exceptions, large migrations of people were usually only under official impetus and aid of the Spanish Colonial government, or at least traced by them). But then there is the issue of how many pre-American pieces, with provenance are out there to aid in a typography. Hmm...I just read that and it didnt make sense to me, so oh well. I guess Im trying to say, in Moro Swords, Bob Cato limited his study sample to pre-1930 pieces, still a broad spectrum, but limiting by time period helps to make the study a little smaller and more manageable. But then there is the issue of actually dating these pieces, and affixing items to various time periods, and with a lack of provenance this becomes difficult. Oh well...just rambling, brain is a little fried at the moment. Though hopefully next week, with the start of break itll start working again.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Ruel and others, I'm very glad to your see your critical aid supplied as advice. As one who has been out there collecting information lately I can echo their comments. Terms of reference (definitions) are particulary important.

As one with little experience prior, helping "the dha guys" research effort I put together a brief presentation stating our goals and specific area of research. It helped tremendously in focusing my questions during interviews and was an easily accessable reference on many unforeseen opportunities that popped up. Additionally it served as a contact list and leave-behind document for those I dealt with should they come across additional information later.

The matter of voracity of information is a touchier subject. Without boring you with a intelligence classification class, I'll just say that we rate information on two things 1.The validity of the source - loyalty, personal interests, access to information 2. Credibilty of information - has the source been valid in the past, has there been confirmation from other sources. The touchy part is memory is a funny thing, illustrations and statuary can be influenced by artistic license and old photos can be posed. I guess what I'm trying to say is each bit of information should be treated as a seperate item to be verified and and not just the source who may be right about some things but mistaken on others.

In example there are two bronze statues in the courtyard of the American embassy in Burma of a US officer and a Kachin Ranger carrying a Naga-dao. The Naga-dao reaches from the ranger's shoulder to kneecap. Upon presentation of a poster of this statue with the lineage of his unit underneath, one of the few remaining officers of that unit exclaimed (to paraphrase) "where did they get that sword, he never carried a sword like that and I've never seen one that big either it would be useless in the jungle" The dao was perfectly represented except for its size (confirmed info) and the fact that it wasn't in common use by that unit (unreliability of source).

[Ian]

on eBay, but not sure what it is called: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3945057787

What do you think? Certainly seems to have some age -- early 20th C. maybe. The scabbard reminds me of those on talibon from Leyte. The blade is definitely slimmer than most "talibon" and rather than being a chopper seems to be more designed for stabbing. Could this be an example of the Leyte sansibar that was recently described here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3945057787?

I will send more detailed pictures when I receive the piece.

Ian.

[LabanTayo]

ian,
to me, its just a short talibon. it doesnt have the blade profile of a sansibar. the handle also is not in line with the blade. i have several pieces that i am getting from those guys, and that piece was one of them, but not anymore. i have an actual garab/talibon and an interesting tenegre coming.
i'll post pics to when i get them.

ruel, ian, federico, marc, wilked,
thanks for the input and advice,
we will be taking all of it in to consideration when we finally start this project.

we have learned alot so far........

[Ian]

I have not seen an older sansibar, just the very recent examples referred to on the web site linked to above. Do you have an older example to show us?

Would you agree that the scabbard on the knife I just acquired can be attributed to Leyte? I have a couple of WWII talibon that are very similar and have "Leyte" marked on them.

Ian.

[LabanTayo]

ian,
i know of an old sansibar for sale, but i cant get the guy to come off his extremly inflated price. i do not know if it would be right to post a pic of it since i do not own it.
zel posted a pic of an old sansibar in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39
its with 2 tenegre's and a panabas.


the scabbard of your new toy looks to be from Leyte / Samar, as we all have Talibons with that same scabbard.

[ibeam]

Hello Zel and Shelley,

.

In late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite’s video “Espada y Daga” in the opening credits, he is seen wielding a sword which I believe is a Sanzibar Sword.??? Sorry if the pics are a bit blurry.



Also in the book “Filipino Martial Culture” by Mark Wiley, there is also an action photo of Punong Guro Sulite with the sword doing one of his Laban Laro drills.


I hope this help. I really wish you guys the best on your research on these swords. Great information that will be a very much anticipated.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Ian

Recent item on eBay, but not sure what it is called: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3945057787

Zel and Shelley: I have just received a reply from the seller as to the name of this particular knife. He says that it is known locally as a "Pinote."

Ian.

[tom hyle]

And we know that word as pinuti, though I've more often seen it applied to as sansibar type sword than to a talibon/garab. What is the division being drawn as to pulahan garab vs talibon? What are the structural, cultural, geographical, or historical bases of this division? It may be a somewhat artificial one, and in any event seems to me to cry out for defining; I don't understand it. Is the fully lobed pommel important in some way I'm unaware of? Is there an attempt afoot to divide weapon from tool? It seems to me that the thumb-rest is an old/obsolete feature, but are other equally old blades without it? I'm unsure. Some style feature variations I've found that seem meaningful: overall wedge-section with secondary chisel-bevel at edge vs. flat with chisel bevel vs. "high shinogi" (thicker to front edge) with chisel bevel; orientation of blade in hilt is with the flat side parralel to fingers? or is the (wedge section) blade centrally oriented? or is the spine jigged "off" to the flat way extra far to try to line up the cutting edge? Narrow tip vs. wide tip; straight tip vs. curved tip; raised edges on ricassoe; wide tang vs. nail-like (dha-like) tang; differentially hardened vs. scarf-welded edges; facetted vs. flat-faced vs. eliptical scabbard......
Talibon hilt widens toward the blade, to protect your hand; tenegre hilt narrows toward the blade, and relies on the ricassoe or a guard to protect the hand.
Some thoughts.......

[VANDOO]

LOTS OF GOOD ADVICE IN PREVIOUS POSTS
I CAN'T ADD MUCH BUT I WOULD DECIDE WHICH ISLANDS AND WHICH WEAPONS I WAS INTERESTED IN. THEN FIND SOME GOOD OLD EXAMPLES WITH GOOD PROVENANCE (PERHAPS IN MUSEUMS OR BOOKS). USE THESE EXAMPLES TO ESTABLISH A COMPARATIVE BASE LINE AND THEN YOU CAN TRY AND GROUP WEAPON TYPES WITHOUT GOOD PROVENANCE. THERE WILL BE SOME VARIATION IN FORMS WITHIN EACH TYPE AND MANY DIFFERENT REGIONAL NAMES AND NO DOUBT A FEW MAVRICKS THAT DON'T FIT WELL ANYWHERE.
IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO ASK ADVICE OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE WRITTEN BOOKS AND DONE SIMULAR RESEARCH YOU MIGHT GAIN VALUABLE CONTACTS THERE. MR CATO AND MR ZONNEVELD COME TO MIND HERE. GOOD LUCK ON A INTERESTING PROJECT.

[KuKulzA28]

is this still going on?