steel in african weapons

[Lew]

[QUOTE=ausjulius]come now tell that to the dayaks... :P

or the celts, many didnt wear much atal when they fought,,,.. but they had tempering and lamination techniques equial to those used in the middle ages

it so odd that people had mastered iron productin so well but never advanced the metal craft further.

ausjulius


From what I know the Celts and middle age swords were mostly spring tempered to between 45-50 Rockwell and the laminated blades consisted of a central core which had an outer edge of harder steel welded around the core. I saw no evidence of a differential heat treat or the use of san mai or clay tempering techniques as found in Asian blades. You also must take into consideration that there was a great deal of trade going on of ideas and goods between India,Persia,Central Asia,China and North Africa which may not have reached Central Africa the Congo and South Africa. So the Bantu smiths forged blades in very primitive forges consisting of a hole in the ground a basic bellows and a stone anvil. What they produced worked just fine for their type of warfare and there was no need to fix what was not broken. There was an arms race of in Asia and MidEast and Europe that atributed to the evolution of better arms and manufacturing techniques which in the end produced superior steel bladed weapons which now we see today. As far as the use of armor is concerned the Mid East was hot and dry as was Rhajistan in India so wearing metal armor or chail mail may not have presented as much as a problem as in central Africa were you can have the same heat but with 90 percent plus humidity and the humidity would not only kill you faster via heat stroke but would cause the armor to rust faster.

Lew

[Tim Simmons]

Personally I do not get this fascination with hardness. You can hurt or kill somebody with a plastic Biro. This one of my most favourite African pieces. Quite modest but so masterful. Tempered more than enough to damage a soft bodied creature. Just look at the beautiful forging like a sculptor working in a soft wax or clay. To me wonderful and perfect.

[Lew]

I must Agree with Tim hard edge tempering on blades is not relevant if you are not using it against hardened armor. Below are a few examples of beautifully made central African daggers. The two on the left are quite springy stiff with thicker steel blades as a matter of fact the second from the left has some lamination present and reminds me of some older Celtic small swords that I have seen. You all should know that the choice of weapon that has killed more people in Africa in the last 100 yrs is the machete which is spring tempered.

Lew

[ausjulius]

[QUOTE=LOUIEBLADES]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

come now tell that to the dayaks... :P

or the celts, many didnt wear much atal when they fought,,,.. but they had tempering and lamination techniques equial to those used in the middle ages

it so odd that people had mastered iron productin so well but never advanced the metal craft further.

ausjulius


From what I know the Celts and middle age swords were mostly spring tempered to between 45-50 Rockwell and the laminated blades consisted of a central core which had an outer edge of harder steel welded around the core. I saw no evidence of a differential heat treat or the use of san mai or clay tempering techniques as found in Asian blades. You also must take into consideration that there was a great deal of trade going on of ideas and goods between India,Persia,Central Asia,China and North Africa which may not have reached Central Africa the Congo and South Africa. So the Bantu smiths forged blades in very primitive forges consisting of a hole in the ground a basic bellows and a stone anvil. What they produced worked just fine for their type of warfare and there was no need to fix what was not broken. There was an arms race of in Asia and MidEast and Europe that atributed to the evolution of better arms and manufacturing techniques which in the end produced superior steel bladed weapons which now we see today. As far as the use of armor is concerned the Mid East was hot and dry as was Rhajistan in India so wearing metal armor or chail mail may not have presented as much as a problem as in central Africa were you can have the same heat but with 90 percent plus humidity and the humidity would not only kill you faster via heat stroke but would cause the armor to rust faster.

Lew

you must inspect viing and cletiv wepans more closely, you will be rather surprised of the quality of the blades, ..
on the viking swords for exsamples there is some seaxs and sowrds that surpass even the most complex japanese blades......

unfortunatly there is proably ot a great deal of willingness of the museams in europe to let people mess with so valuable items,

shrilanka and southern india are,, not hot and dry, they are humid and whet and armour abounds, as in vietnam and southern china.. for exsample..
hell the spanish wore it in south america for quite some time,

id say cultural and technical nothing to do with heat,
kiribati it very how and humid, but there exsists very complext body armour.. this has to be as hot as the steel arounr of europe.

technology and culture dosnt have much to do with heat.


but still there must have been something even alittle of metalic body armour ,,
and remember the africans had contact with europeans and arabs for along time ,look how old angola is and remember the portagese were using armour in africa not a regualr basis as were the dutch thers many acocunts of this ..

i wounder if there was not some basic metal armour or chest plate developed at some point in this area, it is very surprising,, '

[Lew]

ausjulius

I really can't explain why since you have put holes in my hot and humid theory . Most of the swords I have from that region of Africa are under 24 inches long the symetrical ones are made more for stabbing rather than hacking. Maybe they preferred spears to swords as their main battle weapon they are easier to produce and do not need to hard be tempered? It could be just a cultural thing or maybe they did not have access to large amonts of good quality Iron ore? All I know is that their weapons were very effective for what they were designed to do. I think if you studied how these tribes fought, battle tactics and such it may shed some light on the subject. From what I can remember Zulus for years fought by having there warriors take turns throwing light weight spears at each other from a distance until Shaka came up with the larger heavier bladed stabbing spears and close quarter combat tactics similar to what the Romans used with their gladius and shields.

Lew

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

ausjulius

I really can't explain why since you have put holes in my hot and humid theory . Most of the swords I have from that region of Africa are under 24 inches long the symetrical ones are made more for stabbing rather than hacking. Maybe they preferred spears to swords as their main battle weapon they are easier to produce and do not need to hard be tempered? It could be just a cultural thing or maybe they did not have access to large amonts of good quality Iron ore? All I know is that their weapons were very effective for what they were designed to do. I think if you studied how these tribes fought, battle tactics and such it may shed some light on the subject. From what I can remember Zulus for years fought by having there warriors take turns throwing light weight spears at each other from a distance until Shaka came up with the larger heavier bladed stabbing spears and close quarter combat tactics similar to what the Romans used with their gladius and shields.

Lew

yes i think heat was not it..
i would say cultural..
from what i understand the african iron mostly has alot of impurities in it so i guess this is where the chipping and bent or soft blades and such comes from..

yes it appears clubs , spears and sheilds were the main desired items in combat in this area.
im interested if the ruling classes took part in combat or were they only observing, as generaly a refinment of weapons and the use of armour comes in a society where this is common, (people incharge dont like to get hurt )


still im interested about the tools they used ,
does anyone have any pictures of the equiptment of a 19th centuary blacksmith of this area?

(ah also speeking of the celtic and viking weapons and the lamination,i have sp[oken some time back to somebody who was involved in examining these ill look to get a picture of the blade, i belive some were polished and the laminations shows)

[Lew]

Look at this


http://www.newscientist.com/article/...can-forge.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=phg...m=11&ct=result

[fearn]

So far as short blades vs. long blades, I think the problem is the size of the anvil. I know that two-handed swords (either European or Japanese) were hard to make, and hard to temper properly, because they were often too long for the forge. If you've got a small forge, short blades are much easier to make.

Ditto with complex shapes and tempering. Something with complicated curves and cutouts is going to heat unevenly, and it's going to be hard to temper evenly. I would expect perhaps spot hardening (as on a kukri edge) at best.

One problem we haven't discussed is the issue of history. Most of the African blades we see are post-colonial in origin, and most (not all!) were not produced for war. Here's an analogy. Imagine that the only European swords you saw were produced around 1900. How would you judge European sword culture? Probably, you'd figure that swords were minor and ceremonial weapons, as all the blades you could find were badly made (compared to, say, a 14th century sword) and poorly used. Because Africa doesn't have a great historical record, it's somewhat hard to judge how good African swords were or could be. All we see are the modern ones.

Just a thought,

F

[Tim Simmons]

I would have bought this book but have my eyes on other things. I have snatched this picture though.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=025

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by fearn

So far as short blades vs. long blades, I think the problem is the size of the anvil. I know that two-handed swords (either European or Japanese) were hard to make, and hard to temper properly, because they were often too long for the forge. If you've got a small forge, short blades are much easier to make.

Ditto with complex shapes and tempering. Something with complicated curves and cutouts is going to heat unevenly, and it's going to be hard to temper evenly. I would expect perhaps spot hardening (as on a kukri edge) at best.

One problem we haven't discussed is the issue of history. Most of the African blades we see are post-colonial in origin, and most (not all!) were not produced for war. Here's an analogy. Imagine that the only European swords you saw were produced around 1900. How would you judge European sword culture? Probably, you'd figure that swords were minor and ceremonial weapons, as all the blades you could find were badly made (compared to, say, a 14th century sword) and poorly used. Because Africa doesn't have a great historical record, it's somewhat hard to judge how good African swords were or could be. All we see are the modern ones.

Just a thought,

F

hmm first to the anvil.. i disagree.
look for exsample at the size and complexed awkward shapes these african weapons come in,, they were using a crude anvil to make these, these shapes are much much harder to form that a european or japanese blade shape which is very simple by comparison, apsecialy the japanese blade.

a good exsample of good tempering is blades made fomr semi nomadic groups in borneo..
thes epeople use very crud tools but the treatment and finish of their wepaons is very impressive for teh tools they used,, when you look at old weapons of their from 18th and 19th centuary which were collected they are very well hardened and made.. but they had much less resources and no more complex tools that in africa,
just good technique,
african blades are hard to make, compared to a simple stirght blade.
and would take alot of work to produce,
the poor heat treatment and hardening is comon just the same in simple tools and knvies as in complexed tools and knives , it is not the shape,
although no doubt it would be worse in more complexed wepaons,

id say you can find many many african blades from the 19th centuary and quite alot from the 18th centuary and the styles are similar as is the quality.
i thin ingeneral most swords were not used for combat,,
but they ust have used some as there is accounts of them doing so ,

a sword made around 1900 for military use is a cheaply made functional item..
... its use is instantly apparent .. and it is designed for a function,

the afircan swords ive seen ive never been able to see any use for any of them,
the masi knives yes, they are a multi tool basucaly in the style of their spears.
the swords of ethopia yes and many appear to be use and had a specific technique to use them,
but the congo area of affica,, the "african" africa,
swords just, seemed to be...... mostly decorative,, or....... made more for a shape that for a use,
even the small galdius type swords they have no guard and no pommel cap and the handle is just a hunk of green wood pushed into the hand and peen over, mostly the handles are broken or split,
if these were being used so often then i would exspect them to use metal in the guard and pommel, and even atlease finish the wood well and maybe use a better wood,

it is interesting no doubt the swords held some cultural importance for rank and power, but how important if at all were they in combat,
the mosy afirican spears and clubs although routhly made are rather fucntional items that are made for a task that is apparent when you see them
the same goes for bows,
but when it comes to swords,,
"klingonish" comes to mind :P

however ,, i realy wounder how old these odd styles are, and was there some stlyes before that that were more simple and more functional??

also , im interested,.....
has ther ebeen any study as to when the sword came into africa and what styles came and what part did the arrive first.
as it realy is clear the concept of a "sword" is something people learn from one groups to the next. hence the different types in earily history spreading around..

Tim, thanks looks like an interesting book ,
however the individuial in the picture is mostlikeliy a moslem frim the north of this region near camaroon and nigeria ,e ct ect,, and not form the southern non arab influenced areas,, hence the horse and the armor. still even this is interesting, as i wounder why it never spread further south,

realy somebody must have a closer look at all this are africa seems to be rather under researched,
and it is interesting to have some information on these things,