"Mad Mahdi" Dagger

Freddy · 27th March 2005, 04:52 PM

Hi Mark,

If you are interested in the history of the Sudan, especially the period of the Mahdi and afterwards, you should try to find this book :

- KARARI -
The Sudanese Account of the Battle of Omdurman

by Ismat Hasan Zulfo (1980)
(translated from the Arabic by Peter Clark)

ISBN : 0 7232 2677 6 5 (hard cover) or 0 7232 2499 4 (paperback)

This books tells the story of the battle of Omdurman and everything preceding it, from the view of the Sudanese. Most book on this topic are written by European writers using European (British) sources. This book gives a new perspective to the story. Really interesting.

Freddy

tom hyle · 27th March 2005, 08:51 PM

In answer to your question, in Sudan are numbers of people known as Arabs, and of Arabian descent, who to N Americans seem to be black Africans; thus we see this is somewhat a cultural/linguistic distinction; the construct of race, while having some validity, is a construct, and not one that exists or is prominant in all cultures. This helps to confuse matters when the N American newsmedia refer to the black Arabs as Arabs and the black Chrisitians and animists as black.

Aurangzeb · 27th March 2005, 10:26 PM

Hi all!

I recently found this metal etching on the internet.Take note that one of the Sudanese has a pistol tucked into his sash,whould this mean that my dagger as well might have been tucked in a sash around the waist?Sorry if the picture does not send I'm really am not good with a computer!

By for now

Rivkin · 27th March 2005, 11:04 PM

About kindjals and Sudan - I always thought that the slave trade in Sudan in the past few centuries was controlled by Circassians, I always thought that after the annihilation of mameluks by Arabs in Egypt they've finally settled in Dankla and other northern cities (Sudan remained under the mamluk control for a few extra decades).

But I've never seen any caucasian weaponry coming from Sudan.

To Jim: ugh, you may be surprised but until the latest DNA research was conducted, majority of georgians believed in their blood relation to celts, specifically to highlanders.

Aurangzeb · 28th March 2005, 12:39 AM

Hi Rivkin!

There must have been a slight misunderstandin(Probably a typo on my part,I'm not a good typist

).I was asking about kindjals in addition to my Sudanese dagger.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2005, 12:50 AM

To Jim: ugh, you may be surprised but until the latest DNA research was conducted, majority of georgians believed in their blood relation to celts, specifically to highlanders.[/QUOTE]

Rivkin,
Not sure I'm clear on what this means, especially the 'ugh'.
It seems the Khevsurs of mountain regions in Georgia have legends where they are presumed to have French ancestry from the time of the crusades, but didn't know about Highlander associations, other than the fact that Khevsurs were also considered 'mountaineers' or highlanders. Tell me more.
Best,
Jim

Rivkin · 28th March 2005, 01:55 AM

It's hard to be objective in describing the theory you really dislike.

In general, based mostly on linguistics the dominant "caucasian" was that "old" european nations - caucasians, celts and etruskians (with sometimes basques being added to this list) share the common ansectry.

The obvious problem with using lingustics is that common language elements can be just a coincidence, or the result of common influence by a third language, and so on, and so on.

But the theory was and is tremendously popular (mostly due to it's confirmation of "european" nature of caucasians and their "ancient" status).

Concerning khevsurian beliefs, it's more of a historic fact - 300 european knights under the leadership of a french knight (I don't remember the name, but I think his initials were HM) came to Georgia to help in the war against seljuks and arabs (that to that moment was raging for 200+ years). Under their influence, Georgia adopts the crusader symbolics (today georgian flag is a jerusalem cross, symbol of templars) and joins the crusade.
It's unclear where they've settled after the battle at Didgori (where they've played an important role), but everyone who wishes to do so, claims the ancestry from them.

Another references to this fact are caucasian "bees" (crosses) on caucasian kindjals/swords and initials HM, also sometimes appearing on kindjals.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2005, 05:34 AM

Hi Rivkin,
Thank you for explaining that, well done!

Actually I didn't have any problem with any theory, just wanted to be sure I understood correctly.
I have always been very fascinated by the history and weapons of the Caucusus and appreciate the interesting information.
All the best,
Jim

27th March 2005, 04:52 PM	#1
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Interesting book Hi Mark, If you are interested in the history of the Sudan, especially the period of the Mahdi and afterwards, you should try to find this book : - KARARI - The Sudanese Account of the Battle of Omdurman by Ismat Hasan Zulfo (1980) (translated from the Arabic by Peter Clark) ISBN : 0 7232 2677 6 5 (hard cover) or 0 7232 2499 4 (paperback) This books tells the story of the battle of Omdurman and everything preceding it, from the view of the Sudanese. Most book on this topic are written by European writers using European (British) sources. This book gives a new perspective to the story. Really interesting. Freddy Last edited by Freddy; 27th March 2005 at 04:54 PM. Reason: 'book' has to be 'books'

27th March 2005, 10:26 PM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Idea Hi all! I recently found this metal etching on the internet.Take note that one of the Sudanese has a pistol tucked into his sash,whould this mean that my dagger as well might have been tucked in a sash around the waist?Sorry if the picture does not send I'm really am not good with a computer! By for now Attached Images Last edited by Aurangzeb; 27th March 2005 at 10:32 PM. Reason: reword

28th March 2005, 12:39 AM	#5
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi Hi Rivkin! There must have been a slight misunderstandin(Probably a typo on my part,I'm not a good typist ).I was asking about kindjals in addition to my Sudanese dagger. Sorry for the misunderstanding

27th March 2005, 08:51 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	In answer to your question, in Sudan are numbers of people known as Arabs, and of Arabian descent, who to N Americans seem to be black Africans; thus we see this is somewhat a cultural/linguistic distinction; the construct of race, while having some validity, is a construct, and not one that exists or is prominant in all cultures. This helps to confuse matters when the N American newsmedia refer to the black Arabs as Arabs and the black Chrisitians and animists as black.

27th March 2005, 11:04 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	About kindjals and Sudan - I always thought that the slave trade in Sudan in the past few centuries was controlled by Circassians, I always thought that after the annihilation of mameluks by Arabs in Egypt they've finally settled in Dankla and other northern cities (Sudan remained under the mamluk control for a few extra decades). But I've never seen any caucasian weaponry coming from Sudan. To Jim: ugh, you may be surprised but until the latest DNA research was conducted, majority of georgians believed in their blood relation to celts, specifically to highlanders.

28th March 2005, 12:50 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	To Jim: ugh, you may be surprised but until the latest DNA research was conducted, majority of georgians believed in their blood relation to celts, specifically to highlanders.[/QUOTE] Rivkin, Not sure I'm clear on what this means, especially the 'ugh'. It seems the Khevsurs of mountain regions in Georgia have legends where they are presumed to have French ancestry from the time of the crusades, but didn't know about Highlander associations, other than the fact that Khevsurs were also considered 'mountaineers' or highlanders. Tell me more. Best, Jim

28th March 2005, 01:55 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It's hard to be objective in describing the theory you really dislike. In general, based mostly on linguistics the dominant "caucasian" was that "old" european nations - caucasians, celts and etruskians (with sometimes basques being added to this list) share the common ansectry. The obvious problem with using lingustics is that common language elements can be just a coincidence, or the result of common influence by a third language, and so on, and so on. But the theory was and is tremendously popular (mostly due to it's confirmation of "european" nature of caucasians and their "ancient" status). Concerning khevsurian beliefs, it's more of a historic fact - 300 european knights under the leadership of a french knight (I don't remember the name, but I think his initials were HM) came to Georgia to help in the war against seljuks and arabs (that to that moment was raging for 200+ years). Under their influence, Georgia adopts the crusader symbolics (today georgian flag is a jerusalem cross, symbol of templars) and joins the crusade. It's unclear where they've settled after the battle at Didgori (where they've played an important role), but everyone who wishes to do so, claims the ancestry from them. Another references to this fact are caucasian "bees" (crosses) on caucasian kindjals/swords and initials HM, also sometimes appearing on kindjals.

28th March 2005, 05:34 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hi Rivkin, Thank you for explaining that, well done! Actually I didn't have any problem with any theory, just wanted to be sure I understood correctly. I have always been very fascinated by the history and weapons of the Caucusus and appreciate the interesting information. All the best, Jim