Tell me about Gatot

P.Abrera · 11th June 2008, 04:10 PM

Coming out of observe-and-absorb mode as I wouldn't mind discussing the pattern and technique with those who do make keris.

It's a form of feather pattern?

If I were to approximate the pamor it would be welding up a couple of hundred layers of straight laminate, square it up, hot cut almost all the way through with a thick wedge-shaped hot cutter to "smear" the pattern then weld up the cut again. Maybe inset a thin straight laminate core in the split before welding up, drawing-out and forging to shape? The pattern converges at the tip but is not as "organized" as from the base up until the last few inches of the point.

It's also looks very aggressively etched for topography but not "washed" for contrast like some of the other keris I see. Perhaps the contast steel may not be nickle bearing.

I am still learning about the finer points of keris, but I can appreciate your keris from a bladesmith's point of view. It is a lot of work to create this.

Rick · 11th June 2008, 04:46 PM

Here's a similar example that has been heavily etched .

I believe this technique is called Miring when the pamor is applied on edge rather than layered .

lemmythesmith · 11th June 2008, 06:26 PM

Hi Matahati, welcome to the forum! The blade of your keris has been made by twisting two bars of pamor tightly, these bars are then forged square and welded together, split apart again down the length as P. Abera notes and a piece of pamor inserted between the two, then re-welded. The pattern "fades" a little at the point due to forging-this has slightly "undone" the twist. Looking at it I can't see any steel core-makes life easier as you only have to make one set of twisted bars!!

matahati · 11th June 2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here's a similar example that has been heavily etched .

I believe this technique is called Miring when the pamor is applied on edge rather than layered .

Thank you for the warm welcome Rick. I love the keris you're showing. The hilt looks Madurese or north coast E. Java, am I wrong? Any chance to see a close up of the pamor? Regarding Pamor Miring, it seems you're right according to what I could make out from the Ensiklopedi: it's the other main type of Pamor, along with P Mlulah. I must say, I cannot understand how it is possible to make any kind of strong blade that way, not to mention the skill required for such control of the pattern. Could there be a technical trick?

Rick · 11th June 2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matahati

Thank you for the warm welcome Rick. I love the keris you're showing. The hilt looks Madurese or north coast E. Java, am I wrong? Any chance to see a close up of the pamor? Regarding Pamor Miring, it seems you're right according to what I could make out from the Ensiklopedi: it's the other main type of Pamor, along with P Mlulah. I must say, I cannot understand how it is possible to make any kind of strong blade that way, not to mention the skill required for such control of the pattern. Could there be a technical trick?

A skilled smith can weld this on a core .

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2008, 01:18 AM

Jim Hrisoulas' book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade" will provide a good understanding of the techniques used to produce various patterns in welded material.

Its not about keris, but was written as a handbook for knifemakers wanting to produce patterns in damascus, however, the techniques explained in it parrallel to a significant degree what I know of the techniques used in Jawa.

David · 12th June 2008, 04:36 AM

Ah Rick, you have such pretty toys...

Rick · 12th June 2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Ah Rick, you have such pretty toys...

Compared to who's ?

"The fulfillment of a keris is also the function to fill our soul with."
Empu Kumis

matahati · 12th June 2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jim Hrisoulas' book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade" will provide a good understanding of the techniques used to produce various patterns in welded material.

Its not about keris, but was written as a handbook for knifemakers wanting to produce patterns in damascus, however, the techniques explained in it parrallel to a significant degree what I know of the techniques used in Jawa.

Thanks for the info, sounds like a must get book.
I pondered for some time on the explanation you gave of the way to produce a pattern similar to the picture I posted through a twisting. I could not make it out. A well illustrated book will probably help.

matahati · 12th June 2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

A skilled smith can weld this on a core .

Ouh Lala! Très joli. It's absolutely gorgeous! But what do you mean "to weld on a core"?

Rick · 13th June 2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matahati

Ouh Lala! Très joli. It's absolutely gorgeous! But what do you mean "to weld on a core"?

Whereas your keris is made from soild pamor; the example I have shown has a plain core with the pamor applied to each side .

matahati · 11th June 2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.Abrera

Coming out of observe-and-absorb mode as I wouldn't mind discussing the pattern and technique with those who do make keris.

It's a form of feather pattern?

If I were to approximate the pamor it would be welding up a couple of hundred layers of straight laminate, square it up, hot cut almost all the way through with a thick wedge-shaped hot cutter to "smear" the pattern then weld up the cut again. Maybe inset a thin straight laminate core in the split before welding up, drawing-out and forging to shape? The pattern converges at the tip but is not as "organized" as from the base up until the last few inches of the point.

I think it falls in the general Pamor type Bulu Ayam - chicken feather, with styles like Ron Genduru, Ron Pakis etc.. I like the hot cut with smear effect idea. A skilled "smearer" might manage that. But it seems the layering is very even through the length of each layer: wouldn't a hammering compact the area by the cut, at the same time as it smears? Now, I'm thinking you're cutting the bar of 200 layers in the length from top to tip in order to get the right bend towards the tip along the cut. But then you have to shape the pattern of the layers so that the edges, which throughout the keris point forward, bend back towards the tip in order to improve penetration. How about: you do your 200 layer bar, but you use individual packs of 3 layers folded in 2 so you have a 6 layer sandwitch with U side. You stack say 40 of them one after the other and you work out the shape of the chevron. You make 2 of them and you assemble them on both sides of a 3 layer bar with the layers perpendicular to the sides. Is it possible to make that? Could it be strong? It seems an akward contruction

11th June 2008, 04:46 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Here's a similar example that has been heavily etched . I believe this technique is called Miring when the pamor is applied on edge rather than layered . Attached Images

12th June 2008, 04:36 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Ah Rick, you have such pretty toys... Last edited by Rick; 12th June 2008 at 04:16 PM. Reason: sorry D. , hit edit instead of reply; let's try again !

11th June 2008, 04:10 PM	#1
P.Abrera Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20	Coming out of observe-and-absorb mode as I wouldn't mind discussing the pattern and technique with those who do make keris. It's a form of feather pattern? If I were to approximate the pamor it would be welding up a couple of hundred layers of straight laminate, square it up, hot cut almost all the way through with a thick wedge-shaped hot cutter to "smear" the pattern then weld up the cut again. Maybe inset a thin straight laminate core in the split before welding up, drawing-out and forging to shape? The pattern converges at the tip but is not as "organized" as from the base up until the last few inches of the point. It's also looks very aggressively etched for topography but not "washed" for contrast like some of the other keris I see. Perhaps the contast steel may not be nickle bearing. I am still learning about the finer points of keris, but I can appreciate your keris from a bladesmith's point of view. It is a lot of work to create this.

11th June 2008, 06:26 PM	#3
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Matahati, welcome to the forum! The blade of your keris has been made by twisting two bars of pamor tightly, these bars are then forged square and welded together, split apart again down the length as P. Abera notes and a piece of pamor inserted between the two, then re-welded. The pattern "fades" a little at the point due to forging-this has slightly "undone" the twist. Looking at it I can't see any steel core-makes life easier as you only have to make one set of twisted bars!!

12th June 2008, 01:18 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jim Hrisoulas' book:- "The Pattern Welded Blade" will provide a good understanding of the techniques used to produce various patterns in welded material. Its not about keris, but was written as a handbook for knifemakers wanting to produce patterns in damascus, however, the techniques explained in it parrallel to a significant degree what I know of the techniques used in Jawa.