Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade?

Bill M · 11th June 2008, 03:00 PM

I may soon have an answer to the date on this piece. As you can see the first two digits are obscured by the sosoran that was welded to the blade. Since the VOC ended in 1800, the date is probably 1746, but if I am very lucky, it could be as old as 1646.

I have a friend who has access to a metallurgical x-ray. He is going to do full xrays on this piece and tell me the date. He is also going to xray the hilt. This will give us more clues as to how it was constructed.

Got to work this into his schedule, so I don't know how soon I can post pictures.

FWIW my friend says he can xray steel more easily than copper. He usually deals with Dong Song culture bronze pieces that can be 800 bc or earlier. These are more difficult to xray.

Bill M · 9th August 2010, 11:16 PM

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

Bill M · 6th January 2019, 01:49 PM

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

David · 6th January 2019, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

Bill M · 6th January 2019, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

I did not know how to resurrect to the Keris Forum. So I posted it here and then started over in the Keris Forum.

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.

I am happy for me to redo into the Keris Forum, or resolve the redundancy while keeping the original post with the 40-something comments.

Please let me know how to do this or please I would be happy if you could do so.

David · 6th January 2019, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.

Well, i could relocate this thread to the keris forum, but that would create a redundancy with the thread you have now stated there. I could also combine the two threads into one or we can simply place a link to the thread in the Keris Forum to this one. I will discuss with Rick what he thinks is best.
Just an FYI though, the Keris Forum had been in place for two years when you posted this in the Ethno Forum. We probably should have switched it to Keris back then, but i think we had had far less discussion on Malay Sundang back then and didn't quite know what to make of this one.

Bill M · 6th January 2019, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i could relocate this thread to the keris forum, but that would create a redundancy with the thread you have now stated there. I could also combine the two threads into one or we can simply place a link to the thread in the Keris Forum to this one. I will discuss with Rick what he thinks is best.
Just an FYI though, the Keris Forum had been in place for two years when you posted this in the Ethno Forum. We probably should have switched it to Keris back then, but i think we had had far less discussion on Malay Sundang back then and didn't quite know what to make of this one.

Thank you David, I have tried to bring this post into the Keris. There had not been any comments. I just reposted with a link to the original post.

Would appreciate the last few comments about reposting so as not to confuse.

kai · 6th January 2019, 11:22 PM

Hello Bill,

Sorry, I don't know how I managed to miss your posting back in 2010!

Quote:

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

Could you please try to post scans of the x-ray images? Would like to have a look at the digits as well as search for possible additional marks.

1646 would indeed be quite an early VOC blade and allow for enough time to disperse throughout the archipelago and eventually get recycled as part of this k(e)ris!

The Rotterdam mark won't help to corroborate age since its trade chamber participated in the VOC from the very beginning. It's role increased with time (this won't allow any reliable inferences though).

Regards,
Kai

11th June 2008, 03:00 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I may soon have an answer to the date on this piece. As you can see the first two digits are obscured by the sosoran that was welded to the blade. Since the VOC ended in 1800, the date is probably 1746, but if I am very lucky, it could be as old as 1646. I have a friend who has access to a metallurgical x-ray. He is going to do full xrays on this piece and tell me the date. He is also going to xray the hilt. This will give us more clues as to how it was constructed. Got to work this into his schedule, so I don't know how soon I can post pictures. FWIW my friend says he can xray steel more easily than copper. He usually deals with Dong Song culture bronze pieces that can be 800 bc or earlier. These are more difficult to xray.

9th August 2010, 11:16 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7. Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

6th January 2019, 01:49 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?