Zig-Zag Ladder Pattern

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
I just found this discussion.
It is an interesting blade. I have not seen this pattern before.

I saw many odd patterns while at the Alwar Armory in India last year..some in pattern-weld, but several "unique" pieces in wootz. I would not discount the age of the blade due to pattern alone. I saw one with zig zags emanating from a central "rose" like a sun.....also one of the symbols for the rulers in the area.
What Jeff says about the shallowness of the rungs does ring true, but I would also have you take note of the pitting found near the tip in the fourth photo. If the blade were reforged then the pitting would be different then that I think. What makes the rungs look "odd" is that they were cut with straight sides (pattern is "dense" at the ends of the cut)...much like what is left from an angle grinder rather than a file/chisel, but ....though I think both Jeff and I could pull off such a "trick" neither would do the work for a price that would make a profit at that going rate...at least I did not do this piece.
I could say more if I had the blade in hand.

I wish the blade were in my collection.

Ric

[ward]

Here is a shot of the spine you can see it is average thickness so maybe theoretically possible to add steps later but like Ric Furrer says who would pay waht it would cost to do. If buyer is lurking out there speak up and send some more pics

ward

[Jeff Pringle]

Since the patterning in wootz is intrinsic to the material, provided you don’t overheat it, taking an old blade back to the fire should be no more dangerous to the pattern than when it was initially forged. And if the re-flattening of the blade was done with care (or with a hydraulic press ), you would not induce much distortion of the underlying pattern with the small dimensional change involved in erasing a set of ladders. If I have time this weekend I’ll do a test with before, during and after photos on some wootz of recent vintage.

The occasional parallel lines I immediately chalked up to stray swipes of the hypothetical angle grinder, but it also occurred to me that if one were laddering an already-thin piece of wootz, it is possible that in forging out the ladders on one side, a slight distortion in the opposite side’s pattern could occur & cause ‘ghost’ ladders – since the metal directly under a rung would stretch slightly less than the full thickness metal to either side. If the buyer chimes in we can ask if the ghosts are aligned with the other side’s ladders.

I didn’t do it either, Ric, but back in ’04 I did use a grinder to put a similar pattern into a knife, I’ll try to remember where I stashed that bit of metal and see what it looks like.
Dr. Figiel was still with us in ’98, when he auctioned off his collection at Butterfield’s.

[Richard Furrer]

Jeff,
I understand you meaning....it could also be a bit of bar forged in to locally distort with no/minimal material removal...just a distorion...like Fogg's "spirit" pattern.
However, the corrosion on the blade looks to me like all the forge work had been done years ago priot ro the repolishing that obviously had been done to this blade before selling.
Deep pits like that are not the result of forging, but rust later. The pits appear to be overlapping the zig-zag so I do not think this is a recent forge job.

Ric

[Jeff Pringle]

I agree the pits look ‘good,’ although they show a slight preference for location at the ladder terminations in this shot, which I find suspicious; I may have picked the wrong hypothesis, but it is all speculation when you’ve got nothing but ebay photos to go by

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I agree the pits look ‘good,’ although they show a slight preference for location at the ladder terminations in this shot, which I find suspicious; I may have picked the wrong hypothesis, but it is all speculation when you’ve got nothing but ebay photos to go by

I think if one were to have reforged this that a slightly thinner blade or one less wide would have taken care of the pits nicely.....also during grinding one could have shortened the blade a bit and also done away with the pits......odds are the new polisher just dusted off the surface a bit and etched.

The tip portion shows pitting as well...near the spine.

As you said...Ebay pictures, however...barring the odd provinance and seller and wrong quotes/lies....I think the blade may be good....at the very least it is still rare..even if it were altered in our generation.

Ric

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I think the blade may be good....at the very least it is still rare..even if it were altered in our generation.

Ric

Hi Ric,

Actually I would say the blade has been vandalized. Rare only in that most modern dealer would never alter an old wootz blade.
I have a question. Has this blade even been reforged? I can't tell if it has a smooth surface, and in fact the light seems to reflect unevenly around the scars. It evens out at the edges where the scar is less pronounced from the polish. Could a very superfical, tapered groove leave this pattern? The wootz swirls seem to end at the groove rather than run with the grooves as seen on the forged patterns.

Great discussion!
Jeff