Zig-Zag Ladder Pattern

[ALEX]

Here it is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Antique-Ind...QQcmdZViewItem
Apart from the seller who claimed speaking to Dr.Leo Fiegel a few days ago (Dr. Fiegel is no longer among us unfortunately), this sword looks legit. It displays a unique zig zag ladder pattern. Does anyone know of ANY similar pattern in existence elsewhere? Can it be authentic/original? Could the ladder rants were added later, i.e. recently? The reason to make them in the first place is to signify a "ladder to heaven", and would making any other geometrical variations be considered an anomaly (well, there is a double ladder pattern, rose variations, etc, but at least they are known, and still ladder patterns)? If it's authentic pattern - the realised price does not signify it's importance in any way. What gives?

MODERATOR NOTE: I'M ADDING THE PHOTOS FROM THE AUCTION SO WE DON'T LOSE THE REFERENCE MATERIAL. HERE ARE THE FIRST 12, AND THE REST WILL HAVE TO GO IN A LATER POST.

[RSWORD]

Hi Alex,

I found this blade to be quite interesting and actually made a run at it, albeit, an unsucessful one because the wootz is very high quality and the zig zag effect is quite interesting. I felt the pattern was mechanically induced into the pattern during forging. I don't know how you add this effect at a later date to a quality wootz blade without impacting the existing pattern. You make a good point about its intent. While I have not seen a similar pattern I have seen some interesting manipulations a few of which are seen in Figiel's book. I imagine there is a bit of experimentation when trying to manipulate a pattern and I would guess you have to make a few blades to understand exactly how a certain manipulation would turn out. Perhaps someone was attempting to forge a ladder pattern blade but didn't manipulate the ingot in the correct way and turned out this type of pattern versus a ladder or double rung ladder. Who know's. I do think the price was probably conservative because we were dealing with such an unknown and maybe his comments about speaking to Figiel scared a few bidders away. All in all I think the blade is quite interesting on this one!

[Lee]

I do not recall having ever seen that pattern before, although I do agree that it is integral to forging of the blade and that this is wootz. A most interesting piece.

Aside, the reference to speaking with Dr. Figel is remarkably disingenuous and, for me, that auction page is also remarkable for the number of 'warning flags' it contains.

[ALEX]

Rick, thank you for the nice comments. I agree with you, as I also think the pattern is original to the blade. If it'd be added after the production - it'd affect the visible integrity of the blade, but it has no visual defects, such as discolorations, etc. I also think the seller scared many potential buyers by making a false statement, but it is interesting blade indeed.

[Rick]

Impressive that the Seller can channel Dr. Figiel .

[CourseEight]

I don't know much about the particulars of altering or making blades, or how things like acid etcing would affect the wootz pattern, but doesn't it look like the "ladder" is actually slightly upraised from the body of the blade?

[Lew]

When did the good doctor pass away?


Lew

[Marc]

"Good" ole' Eftis Paraskevaides, still at work...

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

I don't know much about the particulars of altering or making blades, or how things like acid etcing would affect the wootz pattern, but doesn't it look like the "ladder" is actually slightly upraised from the body of the blade?

This is sort of "optical illusion", if you will. The "ladders" are not raised, they just appear as such. As with most well defined "Kirk Narduban" aka "Ladder" patterns, they appear visually raised, so it's a normal "visual effect". Also, it just can not be acid etch. An entire pattern appears 100% naturally formed.

[Jeff Pringle]

It looks like an old blade reworked to me, there is a 'modern' feel to the ladder rungs and how they are placed. This would require completely reforging the blade, so unless they started with a heavy blade the finished item would end up noticeably thin or skinny in at least one dimension.
The modern look to the rungs is due to their edges, a little too consistent and different from the ground pattern, combined with the parallel ‘ghost’ lines showing up occasionally, it just screams “angle grinder” to me – compare them to one of Dr. Figiel’s strongly laddered blades, there is a more ‘organic’ feel to the rungs.

[ALEX]

Very interesting observations Jeff

[ALEX]

Jeff - very nice comments. THANK YOU! I also can see the difference. What I can not understand is how the blade can be so substantially reworked without harming an entire pattern. I saw great wootz blades being just polished on a machine and losing 50% of their pattern contrast and also acquiring inactive spots, etc. Now, in case of pattern alteration, such as adding the ladders, some "scars" should have been present.

[ward]

Blade is right i've seen this pattern before but only once long time ago. at that time it was called a tumbling ladder by the guy who had it i think its just the smith showing off his skill doesn't necessarily mean anything like a ladder to paradse. there is no way you could rework the blade with steps like this its all in the forging process. neat piece surprsied you guys let it go that cheap

ward

[ALEX]

Ward, I have to agree with you 100%. Especially with the last sentence:-)
This was an important/rare blade. Congrats to the lucky buyer!!!

[ariel]

Ward, I respect your opinion very much, but I would never trust anything uttered or offered for sale by a person claiming to communicate recently with Dr. Figiel.

[ward]

Yes I saw that and thought it was funny. I generally ignore the descriptions and just look at the piece. It is the same when people quote Tirri or Pant as gospel on the subject

[ALEX]

Very true Ward. Anyone who ever bought anything from Middle Eastern bazaars would better ignore the claims that every piece is made by AssadAllah and is 800 years old... at least:-) But Ariel also has a good point - the seller's credibility, or lack of it, hurt his business.

[ward]

very true. I miss the bazaars it has been a few months since I have been in them. Inshallah I will go back soon

[Jim McDougall]

Perhaps nobody noticed Lew's question, which seems particularly key to this discussion.....when exactly did we lose Dr. Figiel? Does anybody know?

I was also unaware that Brian Robson ("Swords of the British Army") had passed, and uncertain of when that took place. It is always sad to lose these men who have contributed so much to the study of weapons. Surprisingly, even those whose work has been known to be flawed in varying degree, have in thier own way set the path for research, such as Dr.Pant.

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

I would be very careful of anything this seller has to offer. For fun you should follow his other listings. He does have access to relatively skilled craftsmen but he rarely does his home work and will make big mistakes. A lot of his offerings are composites as well. I agree 100 % with Jeff. The lines are less "organic" because they were made very superficial. This is an old rusty blade dolled up. It has been hand polished so that the wootz pattern has not been lost.
Dr Leo S. Figiel died in the 90's (I will see if I can find out when). This gentleman consulted Mr. Leo Figiel, I don't know who he is but he might be a jeweler .

All the Best
Jeff

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

...This is an old rusty blade dolled up. It has been hand polished so that the wootz pattern has not been lost. ...

Jeff, while it is a theoretical possibility, I can not see it being technically achievable. I know there are master blacksmiths who can forge wootz blades, but to take an old blade, reforge and regrind it while preserving wootz pattern is something "unreal" to me.
Would be so interesting to hear from smiths/metallurgists who can comment on the technical possibility.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Jeff, while it is a theoretical possibility, I can not see it being technically achievable. I know there are master blacksmiths who can forge wootz blades, but to take an old blade, reforge and regrind it while preserving wootz pattern is something "unreal" to me.
Would be so interesting to hear from smiths/metallurgists who can comment on the technical possibility.

Hi Alex,

I would love to hear to.

All the best
Jeff

[Lee]

What a fool I am. Yes, Jeff, you have opened my eyes. The character of the 'rungs' is indeed suspicious. So, start with an unpatterned wootz blade, cut new shallow file marks, reforge at low temperature and flatten a bit followed by a light grind and polish.

Photographs can be so deceiving and none of the several shown really give a clue as to thickness. These days I would not buy a purported European medieval sword unless I or a trusted agent had handled it up close and I suppose that rule really must be extended to anything commanding a significant price.

[RSWORD]

I am enjoying the scrutiny over this piece and it is proving to be extremely educational because wootz tends to be very safe because the old complex patterns really cannot be reproduced today and if this is a contemporary manipulation of a blade with complex pattern it is a first and worthy of discussion. However, I am not yet convinced this is the case but would love to continue to discuss the practicality of taking a blade with an existing, very complex wootz pattern, chiseling a zig zag pattern, reforging blade at low temperature and then regrind and polish without 1) losing any of the wootz pattern(albeit there is a bit of fading towards the spine) or 2) altering the complexities of the existing pattern. Please look at this close up of a section of blade. I am noticing a couple of interesting things. First, notice that there is a very narrow shadowy line that is zig-zagging. Right next to that, there is another, lighter line and in the middle are complex swirls on most "rungs" for a lack of a better word. But also notice in the middle of this picture there is a singular line running between the zig zags but also at the same angle. What created this effect? You would think if someone was chiseling zig zags they wouldn't start a line and go whoops better slide over a few centimeters. Since creating this pattern seems basically the same whether you do it at the original making of the blade, or post original blade manufacture, how can you tell the difference? Wootz is hard enough for contemporary smiths to forge I doubt anyone would be willing to experiment on a finished product that has already been forged, ground and polished, and there probably are not any of us that want to donate any wootz blade to experiment upon so I, for one, am excited to continue the debate to see if we can figure out if there is a way to tell if someone has the capability in these days and times to manipulate a very complex patterned wootz blade.

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
I just found this discussion.
It is an interesting blade. I have not seen this pattern before.

I saw many odd patterns while at the Alwar Armory in India last year..some in pattern-weld, but several "unique" pieces in wootz. I would not discount the age of the blade due to pattern alone. I saw one with zig zags emanating from a central "rose" like a sun.....also one of the symbols for the rulers in the area.
What Jeff says about the shallowness of the rungs does ring true, but I would also have you take note of the pitting found near the tip in the fourth photo. If the blade were reforged then the pitting would be different then that I think. What makes the rungs look "odd" is that they were cut with straight sides (pattern is "dense" at the ends of the cut)...much like what is left from an angle grinder rather than a file/chisel, but ....though I think both Jeff and I could pull off such a "trick" neither would do the work for a price that would make a profit at that going rate...at least I did not do this piece.
I could say more if I had the blade in hand.

I wish the blade were in my collection.

Ric

[ward]

Here is a shot of the spine you can see it is average thickness so maybe theoretically possible to add steps later but like Ric Furrer says who would pay waht it would cost to do. If buyer is lurking out there speak up and send some more pics

ward

[Jeff Pringle]

Since the patterning in wootz is intrinsic to the material, provided you don’t overheat it, taking an old blade back to the fire should be no more dangerous to the pattern than when it was initially forged. And if the re-flattening of the blade was done with care (or with a hydraulic press ), you would not induce much distortion of the underlying pattern with the small dimensional change involved in erasing a set of ladders. If I have time this weekend I’ll do a test with before, during and after photos on some wootz of recent vintage.

The occasional parallel lines I immediately chalked up to stray swipes of the hypothetical angle grinder, but it also occurred to me that if one were laddering an already-thin piece of wootz, it is possible that in forging out the ladders on one side, a slight distortion in the opposite side’s pattern could occur & cause ‘ghost’ ladders – since the metal directly under a rung would stretch slightly less than the full thickness metal to either side. If the buyer chimes in we can ask if the ghosts are aligned with the other side’s ladders.

I didn’t do it either, Ric, but back in ’04 I did use a grinder to put a similar pattern into a knife, I’ll try to remember where I stashed that bit of metal and see what it looks like.
Dr. Figiel was still with us in ’98, when he auctioned off his collection at Butterfield’s.

[Richard Furrer]

Jeff,
I understand you meaning....it could also be a bit of bar forged in to locally distort with no/minimal material removal...just a distorion...like Fogg's "spirit" pattern.
However, the corrosion on the blade looks to me like all the forge work had been done years ago priot ro the repolishing that obviously had been done to this blade before selling.
Deep pits like that are not the result of forging, but rust later. The pits appear to be overlapping the zig-zag so I do not think this is a recent forge job.

Ric

[Jeff Pringle]

I agree the pits look ‘good,’ although they show a slight preference for location at the ladder terminations in this shot, which I find suspicious; I may have picked the wrong hypothesis, but it is all speculation when you’ve got nothing but ebay photos to go by

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I agree the pits look ‘good,’ although they show a slight preference for location at the ladder terminations in this shot, which I find suspicious; I may have picked the wrong hypothesis, but it is all speculation when you’ve got nothing but ebay photos to go by

I think if one were to have reforged this that a slightly thinner blade or one less wide would have taken care of the pits nicely.....also during grinding one could have shortened the blade a bit and also done away with the pits......odds are the new polisher just dusted off the surface a bit and etched.

The tip portion shows pitting as well...near the spine.

As you said...Ebay pictures, however...barring the odd provinance and seller and wrong quotes/lies....I think the blade may be good....at the very least it is still rare..even if it were altered in our generation.

Ric