Zig-Zag Ladder Pattern

RSWORD · 4th June 2008, 12:36 PM

Hi Alex,

I found this blade to be quite interesting and actually made a run at it, albeit, an unsucessful one because the wootz is very high quality and the zig zag effect is quite interesting. I felt the pattern was mechanically induced into the pattern during forging. I don't know how you add this effect at a later date to a quality wootz blade without impacting the existing pattern. You make a good point about its intent. While I have not seen a similar pattern I have seen some interesting manipulations a few of which are seen in Figiel's book. I imagine there is a bit of experimentation when trying to manipulate a pattern and I would guess you have to make a few blades to understand exactly how a certain manipulation would turn out. Perhaps someone was attempting to forge a ladder pattern blade but didn't manipulate the ingot in the correct way and turned out this type of pattern versus a ladder or double rung ladder. Who know's. I do think the price was probably conservative because we were dealing with such an unknown and maybe his comments about speaking to Figiel scared a few bidders away. All in all I think the blade is quite interesting on this one!

Lee · 4th June 2008, 01:50 PM

I do not recall having ever seen that pattern before, although I do agree that it is integral to forging of the blade and that this is wootz. A most interesting piece.

Aside, the reference to speaking with Dr. Figel is remarkably disingenuous and, for me, that auction page is also remarkable for the number of 'warning flags' it contains.

ALEX · 4th June 2008, 01:54 PM

Rick, thank you for the nice comments. I agree with you, as I also think the pattern is original to the blade. If it'd be added after the production - it'd affect the visible integrity of the blade, but it has no visual defects, such as discolorations, etc. I also think the seller scared many potential buyers by making a false statement, but it is interesting blade indeed.

Rick · 4th June 2008, 02:42 PM

Impressive that the Seller can channel Dr. Figiel .

CourseEight · 4th June 2008, 02:47 PM

I don't know much about the particulars of altering or making blades, or how things like acid etcing would affect the wootz pattern, but doesn't it look like the "ladder" is actually slightly upraised from the body of the blade?

Lew · 4th June 2008, 03:30 PM

When did the good doctor pass away?

Lew

Marc · 4th June 2008, 03:43 PM

"Good" ole' Eftis Paraskevaides, still at work...

ALEX · 4th June 2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

I don't know much about the particulars of altering or making blades, or how things like acid etcing would affect the wootz pattern, but doesn't it look like the "ladder" is actually slightly upraised from the body of the blade?

This is sort of "optical illusion", if you will. The "ladders" are not raised, they just appear as such. As with most well defined "Kirk Narduban" aka "Ladder" patterns, they appear visually raised, so it's a normal "visual effect". Also, it just can not be acid etch. An entire pattern appears 100% naturally formed.

Jeff Pringle · 4th June 2008, 04:39 PM

It looks like an old blade reworked to me, there is a 'modern' feel to the ladder rungs and how they are placed. This would require completely reforging the blade, so unless they started with a heavy blade the finished item would end up noticeably thin or skinny in at least one dimension.
The modern look to the rungs is due to their edges, a little too consistent and different from the ground pattern, combined with the parallel ‘ghost’ lines showing up occasionally, it just screams “angle grinder” to me – compare them to one of Dr. Figiel’s strongly laddered blades, there is a more ‘organic’ feel to the rungs.

ALEX · 4th June 2008, 05:12 PM

Very interesting observations Jeff

ALEX · 4th June 2008, 05:14 PM

Jeff - very nice comments. THANK YOU! I also can see the difference. What I can not understand is how the blade can be so substantially reworked without harming an entire pattern. I saw great wootz blades being just polished on a machine and losing 50% of their pattern contrast and also acquiring inactive spots, etc. Now, in case of pattern alteration, such as adding the ladders, some "scars" should have been present.

4th June 2008, 02:47 PM	#5
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	I don't know much about the particulars of altering or making blades, or how things like acid etcing would affect the wootz pattern, but doesn't it look like the "ladder" is actually slightly upraised from the body of the blade? Attached Images

4th June 2008, 04:39 PM	#9
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	It looks like an old blade reworked to me, there is a 'modern' feel to the ladder rungs and how they are placed. This would require completely reforging the blade, so unless they started with a heavy blade the finished item would end up noticeably thin or skinny in at least one dimension. The modern look to the rungs is due to their edges, a little too consistent and different from the ground pattern, combined with the parallel ‘ghost’ lines showing up occasionally, it just screams “angle grinder” to me – compare them to one of Dr. Figiel’s strongly laddered blades, there is a more ‘organic’ feel to the rungs. Attached Images

4th June 2008, 12:36 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,089	Hi Alex, I found this blade to be quite interesting and actually made a run at it, albeit, an unsucessful one because the wootz is very high quality and the zig zag effect is quite interesting. I felt the pattern was mechanically induced into the pattern during forging. I don't know how you add this effect at a later date to a quality wootz blade without impacting the existing pattern. You make a good point about its intent. While I have not seen a similar pattern I have seen some interesting manipulations a few of which are seen in Figiel's book. I imagine there is a bit of experimentation when trying to manipulate a pattern and I would guess you have to make a few blades to understand exactly how a certain manipulation would turn out. Perhaps someone was attempting to forge a ladder pattern blade but didn't manipulate the ingot in the correct way and turned out this type of pattern versus a ladder or double rung ladder. Who know's. I do think the price was probably conservative because we were dealing with such an unknown and maybe his comments about speaking to Figiel scared a few bidders away. All in all I think the blade is quite interesting on this one!

4th June 2008, 01:50 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 953	I do not recall having ever seen that pattern before, although I do agree that it is integral to forging of the blade and that this is wootz. A most interesting piece. Aside, the reference to speaking with Dr. Figel is remarkably disingenuous and, for me, that auction page is also remarkable for the number of 'warning flags' it contains.

4th June 2008, 01:54 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Rick, thank you for the nice comments. I agree with you, as I also think the pattern is original to the blade. If it'd be added after the production - it'd affect the visible integrity of the blade, but it has no visual defects, such as discolorations, etc. I also think the seller scared many potential buyers by making a false statement, but it is interesting blade indeed.

4th June 2008, 02:42 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,369	Impressive that the Seller can channel Dr. Figiel .

4th June 2008, 03:30 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	When did the good doctor pass away? Lew

4th June 2008, 03:43 PM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	"Good" ole' Eftis Paraskevaides, still at work...

4th June 2008, 05:12 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Very interesting observations Jeff

4th June 2008, 05:14 PM	#11
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jeff - very nice comments. THANK YOU! I also can see the difference. What I can not understand is how the blade can be so substantially reworked without harming an entire pattern. I saw great wootz blades being just polished on a machine and losing 50% of their pattern contrast and also acquiring inactive spots, etc. Now, in case of pattern alteration, such as adding the ladders, some "scars" should have been present.