Keris Holders

[David]

Hi Cecas, welcome to the forum. You thesis sounds very interesting. I hope that once it is finished you will be able to prvide a link where we can all read it.
I have 5 of these Bali style keris holders. Three of them are very new, but nicely carved little bald men with beautific smiles on their face (buddha?) that are very similar except for their body positions. Probably by the same artist or "family" of artists. I also have a Hanuman that might be from the 70s or 80s (hard to tell age on these) and an unidentifiedcrouching fellow who i quite like, probably about the same age. When i get a chance i will see if i can photograph them.
I also display with a few different ploncons and blawongs.
BTW, please don't take this personally as i am sure your intentions are sincere, but i personally don't think it a very good idea for collectors with collections of any worth to give out their names and locations. The internet has very big ears and you might be surprised where your information might end up.

[cecas24]

David, In response to,
BTW, please don't take this personally as i am sure your intentions are sincere, but i personally don't think it a very good idea for collectors with collections of any worth to give out their names and locations. The internet has very big ears and you might be surprised where your information might end up.

Completely understood! For those worried about your privacy, I still maintain that you do not have to give your name- just a location(and not a specific address- if you want to just throw out a state that is cool with me), number, and types of holders you own. Of course if you do not want to post it within a thread, (which is truly understandable-there are a bunch of crazies out in the world) please feel free to send it to me directly,
you can reach me at cecas24@aol.com or garfield08@juno.com.


I would love any images you have of your holders David, especially Hanuman. Comparing the various ones I have seen is very helpful in relation to artistic style.
Thanks so much!

[Kiai Carita]

And not all demons are Rahwana.

I have been meaning to say this since reading the togogan thread a few weeks back. Not all apes are Hanuman, and in Bali, Sugriwa and Subali (both red and kings), as well as Anila (blue) are also very popular characters from the Ramayana who are often seen popping up in folk art.

Hanuman should be white and have a) the kuku pancanaka - large thumb nail (like a kerambit) and b) the poleng chequered sarong.

Demons / raksasa are in my observations, often Kumbakarna, rather than Rahwana. Kumbakarna is Rahwana's patriotic brother and a favorit character amongst the kesatria caste.

Warm regards,
Bram

[Rick]

Who is this fellow ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Agreed Bram.

Agreed 125%.

And what makes it even more confusing is that the people who produce these carvings often, very, very often will produce a figure that is a mixture of characteristics, or that is clearly a particular character, but incorrectly represented in accordance with defined characteristics of the character.

Another thing that the carvers do is to use various features or characteristics from traditional characters, and weave these features and characteristics into something new. If this "something new" is a good seller, it becomes copied by other carvers, and before long you've got something that everybody, including the carvers themselves, think is traditional, but really is not.

Then there are the dictates of material:- the carver will have a form in his mind, and he will alter that form to fit the material he has to work with.

Many years ago a man who was an authority on South East Asian and primitive art, and whose opinion was respected across the world, commented to me that often the only person who knew what a particular figure was supposed to represent was the carver, or perhaps in some cases, the person who placed the order with the carver. This man's comments were not specific to Bali, but were addressed as a generality to S.E. Asian art, including the areas of primitive art. I am very inclined to agree with this opinion.

In the case of Bali, since probably about the 1920's, there has been so much input from outside sources to Balinese artistic pursuits, that it is sometimes a little bit difficult to identify those things that could be considered to be Bali asli, and those things that are a product of Balinese thought, technique, and skill that have absorbed influences from outside of Bali. This is not to say that such things are not truly Balinese:- if we look at the span of Balinese life and art, we find that throughout history the Balinese people have accepted and incorporated into their society, and into their culture, ideas from outside Bali. This is evidence of the vibrant and robust nature of Balinese art, that something can be taken from a different source, and incorporated into the local vocabulary----but it does sometimes make it a wee bit difficult to identify exactly what the artist was intent on portraying.

If we were to consider only those blossoms of Balinese art which bloomed prior to, say, 1920 , we could very probably determine with some degree of certainty what character a particular figure was intended to represent, however, since probably 99.9% of all Balinese carved figures that we encounter have been produced since 1920, we really would be a little self indulgent if we thought that our opinions could be considered to be anything other than merely opinions.

[A. G. Maisey]

Cecas, herewith my interpolated responses to your questions.

I do not hold myself forth to be an authority in this particular field, but I do have very lengthy experience with the subject, and what I write below should be considered to be opinion based upon + 50 years experience. This does not mean that this opinion is incontrovertibly correct.

#1) I was told by a collector in California that Balinese Kris holders always have square bottoms-Does anyone know this to be -False?

False.
See the photos I have posted; these are all recent carvings, the oldest is only about 35 years old, but I have seen much older holders that have both square and round bases.

#2) For anyone who has traveled to Bali, have you observed specific deities used only for holders ? (not those produced for tourists, but rather traditional holders)

It is difficult, if not impossible to find holders that have not been produced with the tourist market in mind. Yes, certainly they may be produced for local buyers as well, but since the biggest market sector in this field is people from outside Bali, the requirements of these people must take precedence. Bear this in mind:- if a carver puts his time into something, he needs to sell it; if he limits his market to only local buyers he and his family will starve to death.


#3) Does anyone on this site own a holder dating further back than 1920? (Could I get a peek at it?)

The basic principle in Balinese thought is that it is the creation of the work that is important, not its preservation. Thus, if an image of Ganesha is created, Ganesha has been honoured by being created:- preservation of that creation is not important. The constant renewal of shrines and temples is evidence of devotion, not the attempt to retain forever something that has already been created. Because of this cultural mindset, it is very seldom that we will encounter truly old examples of Balinese artistic endeavour in Bali itself.This applies most particularly to those things that could be considered as household items, or as folk art. Combine the mindset with tropical weather and rapacious insects that can destroy a piece of wood almost overnight, and the end result is that we need to look for old examples of Balinese art outside Bali itself. You may find Urs Ramseyer's "The Art and Culture of Bali" to be useful; several older keris holders are shown in this book, I don't think the dates are given, but their location is given, so it might be possible to ascertain a date.

#4) Last but not least, the question still remains, aside from the, Berman Museum, the Met, & Farrow Fine Art Gallery, does anyone know of a US Museum or Gallery that has holders in its collection?

Cecas, your interest is apparently exclusive to keris holders extant in the US. You should be aware that I am in Australia, as are the keris holders of which I have provided photos.

In response to "The Demon Frog", I have discovered in many cases the frog is a substitute for the tuber of the lotus flower. Then when a kris is placed in the stand, the shaft is to represent the lotus stalk. From there I have read that the meaning is purely symbolic with references to the male and female principles, magically united and thus forming the origin of all creation.

Interpretation of iconographic motifs can be a very dangerous pursuit.Most particularly so in respect of iconographic motifs that originate in a culture and time frame that varies from our own.

In respect of the beautiful Green Lady in the post of 19 May, I think that possibly she may be able to be interpreted as Bhatari Durga, rather than Rangda.

[TVV]

#4) Last but not least, the question still remains, aside from the, Berman Museum, the Met, & Farrow Fine Art Gallery, does anyone know of a US Museum or Gallery that has holders in its collection?

If I remember correctly, there is a holder or two in the Asian Art Museum in San Francisco (along with some nice keris).