Keris Found From A shipwreck

empu kumis · 26th March 2005, 08:10 AM

Hello Kerislovers,
Dear Paul,

I don`t have forgotten the keris of Sendai but I said we don`know the kerisses before the 17th cent. All we have are the oral tradition which I do not trust very much. The construct of tangguh has many questions and could only taken as as an circumstantial evidence not as full evidence.

The wooden hull of the ship must be a very clear evidence where the ship was build.

I have forgotten to mention the pictures from the National Museum in Copenhagen.

http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=203

http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=223

http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=224

This pictures are also very important for the handles.

Bill · 26th March 2005, 01:13 PM

As Paul mentioned materials for a possible hilt, if it is Bugis, there would be a good chance that it could have been Buffalo horn. 400 years of salt water would likely have dissolved that.

nechesh · 26th March 2005, 05:16 PM

Thanks for the links EK. Nice pictures.

A close examination of the hull construction would give clues as to WHO built the boat, but the materials themselves, including ID of the type of woods used would give a better idea of WHERE it was built.

Bill · 26th March 2005, 05:49 PM

http://www.mingwrecks.com/wanli.html

Federico · 26th March 2005, 07:24 PM

One thing to note, the division of SE Asia between Spain and Portugal lasted only until Spain bought out Portugal holdings. I dont have books in front of me, but if memory serves me right that was sometime in the mid to late 16th century. Later the Dutch move in and begin to displace this control, knocking the out of the Spice islands by around 1630. However, while national colonies ebb and flow, individual traders often were able to pass through strict lines (hey Magellan was Portugese). So perhaps the Portugese aspect is less Portugal as nation/colonial power, but rather individual commision, which would explain greater freedom to be in Spanish territory (of course this is counting that the ship was indeed built in PI). As for Bugis commissioning a ship in PI, possibly in the SE, eg. oft disputed Sarangani island, but anything more PI proper would have been difficult. Even this is difficult as the 16th century is a period of consolidation for groups in PI. Spain is consolidating its northern island colonies, Mindanao is consolidating under Sultan Kudurat and his father, Sulu's borders are also in flux. There is plenty of turmoil going on to make foreign trade dangerous, though it is not inconceivable a single rich trader could have something commissioned, but then if that trader was Bugis, why all the Portugese hallaballoo symbols. Then again, while the ship may have been built in PI, doesnt mean the crew would have been from PI perse. A rich foreign trader could have brought his crew with him. Also trade ports are full of foreigners, a recruiter would not have had a difficult time finding a crew of individuals who are looking for a way home, and willing to serve on a ship heading in the same direction. Malays from Brunei, ternate, and elsewhere would have been just a common occurence as Bugis. Anyways, just some ideas to chew on.

Bill · 28th March 2005, 02:03 PM

A Philippine, Bugis, & Portuegese connection all seems to be feasible. The Dutch are successfull in Celebes/Moluccas because they are buisnessmen only concered about the bottom line. The Portuegese have a budgit that may vary quite some from year to year depending on the priority of Portuegese government. One of the top trade items to China would be spices, sandlewood, etc from Celebes/Moluccas area. C. Macknight's paper 81 "Early history of South Sulawesi" shows dramatic drop in Chinese tradeware around 1500 (my opinion the fall of Malacca, latter the Spanish attack on Brunei should damage this trade also). I would think early 17thC. goods from Celebes to China would reap conciderable profits. MacKnight's paper also refers to the role the "Bajau" play in early Philippine/Sulawesi trade & suggests regular direct trade. After Dutch rule the Bugis will have boats built by a Mindanao group (Samal?) in Borneo. The Samal have a strong presence already in Celebes, so they may already have competent shipbuilders there or could easily send for them. Seems plausible a Portuegese buisnessman or even a official government venture would put a deal together like this, moderate investment with potential for huge profit.

Bill · 28th March 2005, 02:24 PM

a Makassarese connection may even be more likely as they would have been dominate power early 17thC Sulawesi as the Bugis groups have been in constant wars with each other. The Makassarese also have strong connections with the Philippines.

26th March 2005, 08:10 AM	#1
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Hello Kerislovers, Dear Paul, I don`t have forgotten the keris of Sendai but I said we don`know the kerisses before the 17th cent. All we have are the oral tradition which I do not trust very much. The construct of tangguh has many questions and could only taken as as an circumstantial evidence not as full evidence. The wooden hull of the ship must be a very clear evidence where the ship was build. I have forgotten to mention the pictures from the National Museum in Copenhagen. http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=203 http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=223 http://www.kunstkammer.dk/Ostindiske...ske.asp?ID=224 This pictures are also very important for the handles.

26th March 2005, 01:13 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	As Paul mentioned materials for a possible hilt, if it is Bugis, there would be a good chance that it could have been Buffalo horn. 400 years of salt water would likely have dissolved that.

26th March 2005, 05:16 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks for the links EK. Nice pictures. A close examination of the hull construction would give clues as to WHO built the boat, but the materials themselves, including ID of the type of woods used would give a better idea of WHERE it was built.

26th March 2005, 05:49 PM	#4
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	http://www.mingwrecks.com/wanli.html

26th March 2005, 07:24 PM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	One thing to note, the division of SE Asia between Spain and Portugal lasted only until Spain bought out Portugal holdings. I dont have books in front of me, but if memory serves me right that was sometime in the mid to late 16th century. Later the Dutch move in and begin to displace this control, knocking the out of the Spice islands by around 1630. However, while national colonies ebb and flow, individual traders often were able to pass through strict lines (hey Magellan was Portugese). So perhaps the Portugese aspect is less Portugal as nation/colonial power, but rather individual commision, which would explain greater freedom to be in Spanish territory (of course this is counting that the ship was indeed built in PI). As for Bugis commissioning a ship in PI, possibly in the SE, eg. oft disputed Sarangani island, but anything more PI proper would have been difficult. Even this is difficult as the 16th century is a period of consolidation for groups in PI. Spain is consolidating its northern island colonies, Mindanao is consolidating under Sultan Kudurat and his father, Sulu's borders are also in flux. There is plenty of turmoil going on to make foreign trade dangerous, though it is not inconceivable a single rich trader could have something commissioned, but then if that trader was Bugis, why all the Portugese hallaballoo symbols. Then again, while the ship may have been built in PI, doesnt mean the crew would have been from PI perse. A rich foreign trader could have brought his crew with him. Also trade ports are full of foreigners, a recruiter would not have had a difficult time finding a crew of individuals who are looking for a way home, and willing to serve on a ship heading in the same direction. Malays from Brunei, ternate, and elsewhere would have been just a common occurence as Bugis. Anyways, just some ideas to chew on.

28th March 2005, 02:03 PM	#6
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	A Philippine, Bugis, & Portuegese connection all seems to be feasible. The Dutch are successfull in Celebes/Moluccas because they are buisnessmen only concered about the bottom line. The Portuegese have a budgit that may vary quite some from year to year depending on the priority of Portuegese government. One of the top trade items to China would be spices, sandlewood, etc from Celebes/Moluccas area. C. Macknight's paper 81 "Early history of South Sulawesi" shows dramatic drop in Chinese tradeware around 1500 (my opinion the fall of Malacca, latter the Spanish attack on Brunei should damage this trade also). I would think early 17thC. goods from Celebes to China would reap conciderable profits. MacKnight's paper also refers to the role the "Bajau" play in early Philippine/Sulawesi trade & suggests regular direct trade. After Dutch rule the Bugis will have boats built by a Mindanao group (Samal?) in Borneo. The Samal have a strong presence already in Celebes, so they may already have competent shipbuilders there or could easily send for them. Seems plausible a Portuegese buisnessman or even a official government venture would put a deal together like this, moderate investment with potential for huge profit.

28th March 2005, 02:24 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	a Makassarese connection may even be more likely as they would have been dominate power early 17thC Sulawesi as the Bugis groups have been in constant wars with each other. The Makassarese also have strong connections with the Philippines.