Bali togogan (figural) hilts

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2008, 08:21 AM

Michael, I genuinely like Martin Kerner. Not only is he a thorough gentleman, but he is a very, very good statistician.

Regrettably some of his social and cultural ideas on Jawa and Bali are just a wee bit off to one side.

I've been trying for a very long time to come to terms with Bhatara Guru. His position in the pantheon seems to change from era to era and at the present time, from person to person, depending on who you're talking to. Maybe even from day to day, depending on how a person is feeling on the day.

I think that in terms of Jawa/Bali, I'm about at the position where Bhatara Guru = Bhatara Guru, and I'm not really prepared to debate with anybody whether Bhatara Guru can be equated with any other personage in the mainstream. In my previous post I mentioned the possibilities, but maybe in Jawa, Bhatara Guru was initially created from a melding of ideas and characters, both actual and from the Hindu mainstream. Maybe he really is a unique character who can be associated with mainstream characters, but is not exactly the same as any mainstream character

One of the problems with Balinese togogans, whether keris hilts, or other statues, is that very often the figure will be changed by the artist to suit his own whim, and it can mean exactly what the artist wants it to mean. The standard mainstream forms do not necessarily apply, and maybe a figure that looks like it should be one character, is intended by the artist to be some other character. Some are readily recognisable, but to try to name each and every one can be a real trap for young players. Additionally, not all the forms are necessarily related to the Hindu pantheon, but can be indigenous Balinese characters.

I've currently got about 20 or so Bali handles in a box ready to photograph. When I get a bit of time and a decent day, I'll do the lot and put them up here a couple at a time. I think we might have a bit of fun with some of these.

VVV · 10th May 2008, 09:43 PM

Alan,
It seems like your description of different opinions on Bhatara Guru is typical of syncretism.
Btw, do you know if Akshobya is/was well-known on Bali too?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 11th May 2008, 12:17 AM

Yes, true, and the syncretic nature of Javanese culture and society is well reported. At a basic level Bali is an extension of Jawa, so it is natural that syncetism should also be an element there, as well.

The Buddhist element in Jawanese society was most prevalent in the period through to around 1000AD, and again in the East Jawa period. I've never come across any references to Akshobya in Bali, but that doesn't mean much, as I have not studied Buddhism in Bali at all.As a prominent point of reference I can say that I have not encountered Akshobya there. On the other hand, Bhatara Guru is hiding behind every corner. There are those who want make of every figure that bears one of his characteristics, a representation of Bhatara Guru--- and if these people can relate Bhatara Guru to the figure, who is to say they are wrong --- insofar as their own belief is concerned?

VVV · 11th May 2008, 08:56 PM

Thanks Alan,

Maybe it's time for you to tell us more about the hilts you originally posted (Bayu and [Ravana???])?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 11th May 2008, 09:52 PM

Yeah, I'd back Bayu and Rawana.

But how about my relationships question?

Study of this sort of thing is not just about hanging names---either right or wrong---on things.

Nobody interested enough to draw a few connecting lines?

VVV · 11th May 2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, I'd back Bayu and Rawana.

But how about my relationships question?

Study of this sort of thing is not just about hanging names---either right or wrong---on things.

Nobody interested enough to draw a few connecting lines?

OK, I will give it a try.
Here are the relationships of the hilts according to my present understanding (I look forward to learn some more on this subject):

Hanuman is the son of Bayu, which explains why he is so good at big leaps (like across the sea all the way from India to Lanka).
Another famous son of Bayu is Bhima. In this way Bayu is part of both Ramayana and Mahabharata through his sons.

Ravana was the rakshasa king of Lanka that kidnapped Sita, Rama's wife.
In a way Ravana could be "related" to Shiva as a rakshasa king.

Ganesha is one of Shiva's "indirect" sons.

Bayu is also known as the purifier and frees from misfortunes.
On Bali he is known as Bhatara Bayu. In this local role he is the bringer of health and prosperity as well as a protector against evil (= Ravana). He is also known among mystics as Prabhu Guru Bayu (the Great Spiritual Teacher).
Another famous spiritual teacher is Bhatara Ganesha. He also gives success in undertakings, overcomes obstacles and is the god of wisdom ...

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 11th May 2008, 11:58 PM

Yep, Bayu (Vayu) is supposedly Hanuman's father.

Hanuman fought Rawana.

Rawana was king of the raksasas and he lived in Langka.

Langka was originally the summit of Mount Meru, but Bayu broke it off, threw it into the sea, where it became Langka.

Ganesha might have been Siwa's son, from Parvati, but some traditions have him as the son of only Parvati.Michael has mentioned the Maha-bharata;Ganesha wrote the Maha-bharata from the dictation of Vyasa.

We mentioned Agastya too. Whilst the togog might or might not be Agastya, it is worthwhile knowing that Agastya was able to control the raksasas.

All these strange names tie together, and when you know the relationships, the whole thing starts to make a little bit of sense.

10th May 2008, 08:21 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Michael, I genuinely like Martin Kerner. Not only is he a thorough gentleman, but he is a very, very good statistician. Regrettably some of his social and cultural ideas on Jawa and Bali are just a wee bit off to one side. I've been trying for a very long time to come to terms with Bhatara Guru. His position in the pantheon seems to change from era to era and at the present time, from person to person, depending on who you're talking to. Maybe even from day to day, depending on how a person is feeling on the day. I think that in terms of Jawa/Bali, I'm about at the position where Bhatara Guru = Bhatara Guru, and I'm not really prepared to debate with anybody whether Bhatara Guru can be equated with any other personage in the mainstream. In my previous post I mentioned the possibilities, but maybe in Jawa, Bhatara Guru was initially created from a melding of ideas and characters, both actual and from the Hindu mainstream. Maybe he really is a unique character who can be associated with mainstream characters, but is not exactly the same as any mainstream character One of the problems with Balinese togogans, whether keris hilts, or other statues, is that very often the figure will be changed by the artist to suit his own whim, and it can mean exactly what the artist wants it to mean. The standard mainstream forms do not necessarily apply, and maybe a figure that looks like it should be one character, is intended by the artist to be some other character. Some are readily recognisable, but to try to name each and every one can be a real trap for young players. Additionally, not all the forms are necessarily related to the Hindu pantheon, but can be indigenous Balinese characters. I've currently got about 20 or so Bali handles in a box ready to photograph. When I get a bit of time and a decent day, I'll do the lot and put them up here a couple at a time. I think we might have a bit of fun with some of these.

10th May 2008, 09:43 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, It seems like your description of different opinions on Bhatara Guru is typical of syncretism. Btw, do you know if Akshobya is/was well-known on Bali too? Michael

11th May 2008, 12:17 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, true, and the syncretic nature of Javanese culture and society is well reported. At a basic level Bali is an extension of Jawa, so it is natural that syncetism should also be an element there, as well. The Buddhist element in Jawanese society was most prevalent in the period through to around 1000AD, and again in the East Jawa period. I've never come across any references to Akshobya in Bali, but that doesn't mean much, as I have not studied Buddhism in Bali at all.As a prominent point of reference I can say that I have not encountered Akshobya there. On the other hand, Bhatara Guru is hiding behind every corner. There are those who want make of every figure that bears one of his characteristics, a representation of Bhatara Guru--- and if these people can relate Bhatara Guru to the figure, who is to say they are wrong --- insofar as their own belief is concerned?

11th May 2008, 08:56 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Alan, Maybe it's time for you to tell us more about the hilts you originally posted (Bayu and [Ravana???])? Michael

11th May 2008, 09:52 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yeah, I'd back Bayu and Rawana. But how about my relationships question? Study of this sort of thing is not just about hanging names---either right or wrong---on things. Nobody interested enough to draw a few connecting lines?

11th May 2008, 11:58 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yep, Bayu (Vayu) is supposedly Hanuman's father. Hanuman fought Rawana. Rawana was king of the raksasas and he lived in Langka. Langka was originally the summit of Mount Meru, but Bayu broke it off, threw it into the sea, where it became Langka. Ganesha might have been Siwa's son, from Parvati, but some traditions have him as the son of only Parvati.Michael has mentioned the Maha-bharata;Ganesha wrote the Maha-bharata from the dictation of Vyasa. We mentioned Agastya too. Whilst the togog might or might not be Agastya, it is worthwhile knowing that Agastya was able to control the raksasas. All these strange names tie together, and when you know the relationships, the whole thing starts to make a little bit of sense.