Bali togogan (figural) hilts

[A. G. Maisey]

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Thanks for your comments. I haven't reflected so much on Agastya before on Java except that I have noticed that he in some temples seems to represent Bhatara Guru (= both Shiva and someone higher than Shiva).

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Actually I haven't noticed earlier, before Kai Wee asked about it, that Kerner so clearly identified this hilt as Agastya. Maybe an example of interpretating something out of the culture?
Or maybe he knows something more about this hilt that isn't in his book?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

If it's a vajra it could maybe fit with Shiva as the vajra sometimes also represents Shiva (not only Indra). BUT Agastya traditionally holds the vessel with water in his left (!), not his right hand.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

Santoso, in Sutasoma: A Study in Javanese Wajrayana, explains Bhatara Guru as both Shiva, but in a more mighty position than in India, as well as a pre-Hindu high god (who also was titled the Lord of the Mountain). Below Bhatara Guru are his sons Brahma, Vishnu and Ishwara. Ishwara is another name for Shiva. According to Santoso this son is closer to the Indian Shiva in power than Bhatara Guru.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

Until we find out if Kerner has some additional reasons for naming it Agastya I agree. Both based on the ascetics vessel held in the wrong hand and I also miss the characteristic pot-belly and his dwarfish stature.

Michael

PS Someone who on Jawa however often is shown with a vajra, as well sharing temples with Shiva, is the Bodhisatva Akshobya.
Alan, how well known was/is he on Bali?
(Just another wild idea from someone outside the culture)

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, I genuinely like Martin Kerner. Not only is he a thorough gentleman, but he is a very, very good statistician.

Regrettably some of his social and cultural ideas on Jawa and Bali are just a wee bit off to one side.

I've been trying for a very long time to come to terms with Bhatara Guru. His position in the pantheon seems to change from era to era and at the present time, from person to person, depending on who you're talking to. Maybe even from day to day, depending on how a person is feeling on the day.

I think that in terms of Jawa/Bali, I'm about at the position where Bhatara Guru = Bhatara Guru, and I'm not really prepared to debate with anybody whether Bhatara Guru can be equated with any other personage in the mainstream. In my previous post I mentioned the possibilities, but maybe in Jawa, Bhatara Guru was initially created from a melding of ideas and characters, both actual and from the Hindu mainstream. Maybe he really is a unique character who can be associated with mainstream characters, but is not exactly the same as any mainstream character

One of the problems with Balinese togogans, whether keris hilts, or other statues, is that very often the figure will be changed by the artist to suit his own whim, and it can mean exactly what the artist wants it to mean. The standard mainstream forms do not necessarily apply, and maybe a figure that looks like it should be one character, is intended by the artist to be some other character. Some are readily recognisable, but to try to name each and every one can be a real trap for young players. Additionally, not all the forms are necessarily related to the Hindu pantheon, but can be indigenous Balinese characters.

I've currently got about 20 or so Bali handles in a box ready to photograph. When I get a bit of time and a decent day, I'll do the lot and put them up here a couple at a time. I think we might have a bit of fun with some of these.

[VVV]

Alan,
It seems like your description of different opinions on Bhatara Guru is typical of syncretism.
Btw, do you know if Akshobya is/was well-known on Bali too?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, true, and the syncretic nature of Javanese culture and society is well reported. At a basic level Bali is an extension of Jawa, so it is natural that syncetism should also be an element there, as well.

The Buddhist element in Jawanese society was most prevalent in the period through to around 1000AD, and again in the East Jawa period. I've never come across any references to Akshobya in Bali, but that doesn't mean much, as I have not studied Buddhism in Bali at all.As a prominent point of reference I can say that I have not encountered Akshobya there. On the other hand, Bhatara Guru is hiding behind every corner. There are those who want make of every figure that bears one of his characteristics, a representation of Bhatara Guru--- and if these people can relate Bhatara Guru to the figure, who is to say they are wrong --- insofar as their own belief is concerned?

[VVV]

Thanks Alan,

Maybe it's time for you to tell us more about the hilts you originally posted (Bayu and [Ravana???])?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I'd back Bayu and Rawana.

But how about my relationships question?

Study of this sort of thing is not just about hanging names---either right or wrong---on things.

Nobody interested enough to draw a few connecting lines?