Bali togogan (figural) hilts

[Jussi M.]

I have no clue what I am looking at but I do know I like what I see

[VVV]

According to Kerner (pict 142-143 in the A4 book) the hilt I showed above is Agastya. In the, missing, right hand he holds a vessel with holy water and in the left a bell according to Kerner.
Agastya was a Shaiva-hermit with his own cult. He has a statue in for instance the Candi Singhasari, next to Durga, and probably represents both Shiva and a royal ancestor in a nocturnal magic ancestor cult.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Doubly sorry.

I didn't know that the arrangement of pics varied with the screen, rather than the source. I'll do better next time.

I think a lot of people might have heard of Bayu. Does anybody know the mainstream name of Bayu?

Anybody know if he's got any relatives shown in this thread?

Then we might have a pic of Agastya. Anybody know how Agastya might be associated with with some of the other beings shown here?

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by VVV

In the, missing, right hand he holds a vessel with holy water and in the left a bell according to Kerner.
l

The left hand looks like it is holding a vajra. I don't know.

[David]

Originally Posted by BluErf

The left hand looks like it is holding a vajra. I don't know.

Well, with my own bell and vajre set the top of the bell handle has a vajre termination like this set.

[A. G. Maisey]

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Thanks for your comments. I haven't reflected so much on Agastya before on Java except that I have noticed that he in some temples seems to represent Bhatara Guru (= both Shiva and someone higher than Shiva).

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Actually I haven't noticed earlier, before Kai Wee asked about it, that Kerner so clearly identified this hilt as Agastya. Maybe an example of interpretating something out of the culture?
Or maybe he knows something more about this hilt that isn't in his book?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

If it's a vajra it could maybe fit with Shiva as the vajra sometimes also represents Shiva (not only Indra). BUT Agastya traditionally holds the vessel with water in his left (!), not his right hand.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

Santoso, in Sutasoma: A Study in Javanese Wajrayana, explains Bhatara Guru as both Shiva, but in a more mighty position than in India, as well as a pre-Hindu high god (who also was titled the Lord of the Mountain). Below Bhatara Guru are his sons Brahma, Vishnu and Ishwara. Ishwara is another name for Shiva. According to Santoso this son is closer to the Indian Shiva in power than Bhatara Guru.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

Until we find out if Kerner has some additional reasons for naming it Agastya I agree. Both based on the ascetics vessel held in the wrong hand and I also miss the characteristic pot-belly and his dwarfish stature.

Michael

PS Someone who on Jawa however often is shown with a vajra, as well sharing temples with Shiva, is the Bodhisatva Akshobya.
Alan, how well known was/is he on Bali?
(Just another wild idea from someone outside the culture)

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, I genuinely like Martin Kerner. Not only is he a thorough gentleman, but he is a very, very good statistician.

Regrettably some of his social and cultural ideas on Jawa and Bali are just a wee bit off to one side.

I've been trying for a very long time to come to terms with Bhatara Guru. His position in the pantheon seems to change from era to era and at the present time, from person to person, depending on who you're talking to. Maybe even from day to day, depending on how a person is feeling on the day.

I think that in terms of Jawa/Bali, I'm about at the position where Bhatara Guru = Bhatara Guru, and I'm not really prepared to debate with anybody whether Bhatara Guru can be equated with any other personage in the mainstream. In my previous post I mentioned the possibilities, but maybe in Jawa, Bhatara Guru was initially created from a melding of ideas and characters, both actual and from the Hindu mainstream. Maybe he really is a unique character who can be associated with mainstream characters, but is not exactly the same as any mainstream character

One of the problems with Balinese togogans, whether keris hilts, or other statues, is that very often the figure will be changed by the artist to suit his own whim, and it can mean exactly what the artist wants it to mean. The standard mainstream forms do not necessarily apply, and maybe a figure that looks like it should be one character, is intended by the artist to be some other character. Some are readily recognisable, but to try to name each and every one can be a real trap for young players. Additionally, not all the forms are necessarily related to the Hindu pantheon, but can be indigenous Balinese characters.

I've currently got about 20 or so Bali handles in a box ready to photograph. When I get a bit of time and a decent day, I'll do the lot and put them up here a couple at a time. I think we might have a bit of fun with some of these.