Kurdistan dagger

ALEX · 8th May 2008, 07:47 PM

... that is funny, Lew

TVV · 8th May 2008, 08:17 PM

Alex, this looks amazing. What are your secrets when polishing and etching a blade? How do you polish - very fine sandpaper, or something else? And what do you use for the etch? I would love to get a few tips from you (or the whole manual), as I have a Syrian dagger which exhibits a low-contrast pattern that I would emphasize a little more. Also, when you have a blade in a not so good shape, with heavy patina and pot marks, is there any way to coax a pattern out? I have a damascus yataghan, which exhibits four rows of Turkish ribbon on a small part of the blade, but I have failed miserably in my attempts to reveal the pattern on the rest of the blade.
Thanks,
Teodor

ALEX · 8th May 2008, 10:26 PM

Teodor,
What I've learned is that good quality wootz requires minimum effort to be brought up nicely. Wootz blades which were not polished, grinded and buffed too much during their lifetime have tendency for better contrast when etched. Just like the examples shown above - these blades were in excellent condition, not just well preserved, but not "touched" much. They required almost no mechanical work. All I did was polished them gently with the polishing paste until the surface became mirror-like/shiny, then cleaned it with alcohol and etched with FerroChloride (FeCl) solution. I've worked with good wootz blades with heavy pitting, and when test-etched they were showing good pattern, but when grinded and polished to get rid of pitting - the pattern often lost its contrast and became distorted. I'd strongly recomment NOT to overgrind and overpolish wootz. The goal is to make an entire surface mirror-like without taking too much metal off and without overheating the blade - the less mechanical intrusion - the better! You can use very fine sandpaper with water, then sandpaper with oil, followed by dry sandpaper and buffing, and once the surface looks mirror-like -- stop!
Now, when wootz is low-contrast (especially Turkish or Syrian sham type) - this is how it meant to be by design, and there is not much one can do to increase the contrast, except of trying different etching methods - FeCl, acid, etc. and if it happens to be sham (low contrast wootz) - it'd stay this way:-) Finally, a wootz blade can have areas of pattern loss - different reasons - overheating, overpolishing, underheating:-) Good wootz will always show it's best with almost any etchant, and this is the secret:-) Hope it helps.

ALEX · 8th May 2008, 10:38 PM

I think this is Turkish dagger, however it has some strong Kurdish influence - but the blade has no central ridge. I post it to demonstrate the pattern, which also required no work - just very light cleaning and slight FeCl etch - took 10 minutes.

TVV · 8th May 2008, 11:21 PM

Alex,
Thank you very much. There is plenty of good advice in your post. Here is the blade in question - I guess it is obvious it will never have a particularly strong contrast, but for some reason I think there is some room for improvement. You can barely see the pattern, but it is there. I did degrease the blade with alcohol and then I soaked it into diluted vinegar for about 12 hours (I tried a few hours only and had no result, so I left it in longer).
What is your opinion, should I try another etch, or this is as good as it will get? I have not polished the blade with anything, I only removed rust months ago with brass brush manually (no power tools).
Thank you,
Teodor

JeffS · 9th May 2008, 12:13 AM

Stunning! Congratulations Alex. It has been really fun to see this go from the Ebay auction to the pictures of this beautiful piece with the wootz revealed. I think I'm hooked on collecting for life now.

Gonzalo G · 9th May 2008, 01:01 AM

!Congratulations Alex! You have a great piece over there, thank you for sharing it. Do you have references of wootz production in the kurd region? Or they imported wootz to forge it?
My best regards

mohd · 14th May 2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

.. I post it to demonstrate the pattern ..

Rsword, Alex .. judging from the pattern .. do you think this blade is made from wootz?

ALEX · 14th May 2008, 03:52 PM

Mohd, this is very nice and interesting pattern. The top picture does not look like "classical" Indo-Persian "wootz of legend". It resembles mechanical damascus, i.e. pattern weld - You can see/trace the formed layers of different steels, whereas in wootz the pattern would form in a more random/scattered manner. The other side (bottom picture) actually does look like wootz. Let's see what other members think...

RSWORD · 14th May 2008, 06:42 PM

I agree with you Alex. This is a pattern welded blade with nice layering.

8th May 2008, 10:38 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I think this is Turkish dagger, however it has some strong Kurdish influence - but the blade has no central ridge. I post it to demonstrate the pattern, which also required no work - just very light cleaning and slight FeCl etch - took 10 minutes. Attached Images

8th May 2008, 11:21 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Alex, Thank you very much. There is plenty of good advice in your post. Here is the blade in question - I guess it is obvious it will never have a particularly strong contrast, but for some reason I think there is some room for improvement. You can barely see the pattern, but it is there. I did degrease the blade with alcohol and then I soaked it into diluted vinegar for about 12 hours (I tried a few hours only and had no result, so I left it in longer). What is your opinion, should I try another etch, or this is as good as it will get? I have not polished the blade with anything, I only removed rust months ago with brass brush manually (no power tools). Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

8th May 2008, 07:47 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	... that is funny, Lew

8th May 2008, 08:17 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Alex, this looks amazing. What are your secrets when polishing and etching a blade? How do you polish - very fine sandpaper, or something else? And what do you use for the etch? I would love to get a few tips from you (or the whole manual), as I have a Syrian dagger which exhibits a low-contrast pattern that I would emphasize a little more. Also, when you have a blade in a not so good shape, with heavy patina and pot marks, is there any way to coax a pattern out? I have a damascus yataghan, which exhibits four rows of Turkish ribbon on a small part of the blade, but I have failed miserably in my attempts to reveal the pattern on the rest of the blade. Thanks, Teodor

8th May 2008, 10:26 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Teodor, What I've learned is that good quality wootz requires minimum effort to be brought up nicely. Wootz blades which were not polished, grinded and buffed too much during their lifetime have tendency for better contrast when etched. Just like the examples shown above - these blades were in excellent condition, not just well preserved, but not "touched" much. They required almost no mechanical work. All I did was polished them gently with the polishing paste until the surface became mirror-like/shiny, then cleaned it with alcohol and etched with FerroChloride (FeCl) solution. I've worked with good wootz blades with heavy pitting, and when test-etched they were showing good pattern, but when grinded and polished to get rid of pitting - the pattern often lost its contrast and became distorted. I'd strongly recomment NOT to overgrind and overpolish wootz. The goal is to make an entire surface mirror-like without taking too much metal off and without overheating the blade - the less mechanical intrusion - the better! You can use very fine sandpaper with water, then sandpaper with oil, followed by dry sandpaper and buffing, and once the surface looks mirror-like -- stop! Now, when wootz is low-contrast (especially Turkish or Syrian sham type) - this is how it meant to be by design, and there is not much one can do to increase the contrast, except of trying different etching methods - FeCl, acid, etc. and if it happens to be sham (low contrast wootz) - it'd stay this way:-) Finally, a wootz blade can have areas of pattern loss - different reasons - overheating, overpolishing, underheating:-) Good wootz will always show it's best with almost any etchant, and this is the secret:-) Hope it helps.

9th May 2008, 12:13 AM	#6
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 427	Stunning! Congratulations Alex. It has been really fun to see this go from the Ebay auction to the pictures of this beautiful piece with the wootz revealed. I think I'm hooked on collecting for life now.

9th May 2008, 01:01 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	!Congratulations Alex! You have a great piece over there, thank you for sharing it. Do you have references of wootz production in the kurd region? Or they imported wootz to forge it? My best regards

14th May 2008, 03:52 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Mohd, this is very nice and interesting pattern. The top picture does not look like "classical" Indo-Persian "wootz of legend". It resembles mechanical damascus, i.e. pattern weld - You can see/trace the formed layers of different steels, whereas in wootz the pattern would form in a more random/scattered manner. The other side (bottom picture) actually does look like wootz. Let's see what other members think...

14th May 2008, 06:42 PM	#10
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I agree with you Alex. This is a pattern welded blade with nice layering.