silver mounted file knife

Battara · 4th May 2008, 08:33 PM

I notion that motion and go with the shafra.....

BTW - the mounts look like a mix of brass,copper, and white metal or tin....

Berkley · 4th May 2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

BTW - the mounts look like a mix of brass,copper, and white metal or tin....

Brass and copper, but I believe what looks like white metal is low-grade silver. Application of a silver polishing cloth brings up a nice luster, but the tarnish is more grey than the blackish oxidation on silver of greater purity. .

Tim Simmons · 4th May 2008, 08:59 PM

Does the metal matter more than the form?

Berkley · 4th May 2008, 09:30 PM

Not for purposes of identification, but I'll take a quantity of silver over an equivalent amount of white metal any day

.

Battara · 6th May 2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berkley

Not for purposes of identification, but I'll take a quantity of silver over an equivalent amount of white metal any day

.

Dido.......

Berkley · 27th July 2009, 04:26 AM

At the suggestion of Jim McDougall, I am resurrecting this thread in search of additional comments and insights. The link to the seller's pictures in my initial post no longer is valid, so I am attaching some of those here. I still share Tim's opinion that the decoration is from some Himalayan region.

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2009, 06:03 AM

Hi Berkeley,
Thank you for posting this, and I'm glad we get another shot at this!
I seldom disagree with Artzi's extremely accurate assessments, and this does have the distinct appearance of the shafra, however I think there may be an explanation for the conflicting identifications in yet another conundrum created via the trade routes between India and Arabia.

Also, the note by John Powell, another man I have always had great respect for for his outstanding work on the weapons of Nepal, in terming this a 'bank' may have been referencing the 'hook' type dynamic of the blade. The most commonly known bank is of course a crescent shaped hook blade usually described as a sickle form.

In "Islamic Weapons" Maghreb to Mughul" (A. Tirri, 2003) on p. 95, fig. 56, there are two knives of the 18th-19th c. termed shafra/matwa and of the Arabian Peninsula. These have the distinct form seen on this knife, with the cylindrical handle type hilt, the blade with the sharply angled hook, however these blades have the distinct raised central ridge of janbiyyas.
These are shown classified as Indo-Arab, suggesting a relationship in the form of course with India, and probably referencing this variance.

I am inclined to agree that the floral motif and silverwork appears to be of Nepali-Tibetan type, and for these influences to be found in Nepal-Bengal regions connected to trade into Hyderabad, where profound connections to the Arabian Peninsula have long been well established is not unusual.
Clearly, this piece is more likely later, but reflecting those influences.

In our earlier communication I noted the gile blade of the Afar in Ethiopian regions seems to have this type of angled blade. It is interesting to note the diffusion continuing to the east probably reflecting these same influences via the Red Sea trade.

Thanks again for posting this, and as always, I look forward to other thoughts.

All best regards,
Jim

Rick · 29th July 2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Dido.......

And Aeneas .

Battara · 29th July 2009, 02:29 AM

I also want to add one other thought to the discussion.

Like Arab and Turkish jambiyas, this piece is decorated on one side only . The back side is against the body. To my knowledge, Tibetan and Nepalese pieces on their hilts do not do the same.

27th July 2009, 04:26 AM	#6
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Back again At the suggestion of Jim McDougall, I am resurrecting this thread in search of additional comments and insights. The link to the seller's pictures in my initial post no longer is valid, so I am attaching some of those here. I still share Tim's opinion that the decoration is from some Himalayan region. Attached Images

4th May 2008, 08:33 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I notion that motion and go with the shafra..... BTW - the mounts look like a mix of brass,copper, and white metal or tin....

4th May 2008, 08:59 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Does the metal matter more than the form?

4th May 2008, 09:30 PM	#4
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Not for purposes of identification, but I'll take a quantity of silver over an equivalent amount of white metal any day .

27th July 2009, 06:03 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Berkeley, Thank you for posting this, and I'm glad we get another shot at this! I seldom disagree with Artzi's extremely accurate assessments, and this does have the distinct appearance of the shafra, however I think there may be an explanation for the conflicting identifications in yet another conundrum created via the trade routes between India and Arabia. Also, the note by John Powell, another man I have always had great respect for for his outstanding work on the weapons of Nepal, in terming this a 'bank' may have been referencing the 'hook' type dynamic of the blade. The most commonly known bank is of course a crescent shaped hook blade usually described as a sickle form. In "Islamic Weapons" Maghreb to Mughul" (A. Tirri, 2003) on p. 95, fig. 56, there are two knives of the 18th-19th c. termed shafra/matwa and of the Arabian Peninsula. These have the distinct form seen on this knife, with the cylindrical handle type hilt, the blade with the sharply angled hook, however these blades have the distinct raised central ridge of janbiyyas. These are shown classified as Indo-Arab, suggesting a relationship in the form of course with India, and probably referencing this variance. I am inclined to agree that the floral motif and silverwork appears to be of Nepali-Tibetan type, and for these influences to be found in Nepal-Bengal regions connected to trade into Hyderabad, where profound connections to the Arabian Peninsula have long been well established is not unusual. Clearly, this piece is more likely later, but reflecting those influences. In our earlier communication I noted the gile blade of the Afar in Ethiopian regions seems to have this type of angled blade. It is interesting to note the diffusion continuing to the east probably reflecting these same influences via the Red Sea trade. Thanks again for posting this, and as always, I look forward to other thoughts. All best regards, Jim

29th July 2009, 02:29 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I also want to add one other thought to the discussion. Like Arab and Turkish jambiyas, this piece is decorated on one side only . The back side is against the body. To my knowledge, Tibetan and Nepalese pieces on their hilts do not do the same.