FYI The production of crucible Damascus steel

Ann Feuerbach · 25th March 2005, 02:42 PM

Thanks Greg for the info on forging.

It is something very important but I have no practical experience at, and need imput from those who do. I would like to know how many man hours it takes to forge a knife or sword from ingot to finished product, using traditional forging methods, also how long it takes to sharpen and clean. For ethno-archaeometallurgical studies this is significant.
A standardized nomeclature for patterns does need to be further developed, but is tricky. I have more details on this and only included a bit here. The characteristion of Sham as hypoeutectic is not my "opinion". It was based on previous peoples characterisation (I think Verhoeven, Sashe, and others) together with metallurgical analysis.

Mare Rosu · 25th March 2005, 05:09 PM

Dr. Ann
I have sent you a PM, on Al Pendray.
Gene

Gt Obach · 25th March 2005, 10:02 PM

Hi
i'm not sure my methods can be directly compared to the ancient smiths... cause I could find nothing about how they forged their ingots...

however with that in mind... a basic ingot starts out to be 6lbs and is cut in half before roasting (however I do make some ingots 3lbs also).... then after the roast it is forged down to 1/4 " by 13 or 16" long
- this can take from 1.5 days to 3 days (6-8 hrs a day)
- wootz is crazy in nature...sometimes it is extremely hard to forge/reduce at the beginning....being as hard as strike the surface of the anvil...
- once the steel is down to 1/4 inch size bar..... it works very easily... like a very plain carbon steel ....so it would take me an hour to two hours to forge out a bowie size knife (keep in mind, that I shaped the bar very quickly with an 8lbs hammer)
- now.. I place this in a bucket of wood ash to slow cool overnight
- put the blade into a jar of vinnegar for an hour.... this pickle will loosen the scale and it can now be scrubbed off with steel wool
- now I like to use coarse files and work my way up to fine files to shape the steel blade
- then use coarse stones up to fine.... followed by paper abrasives up to 600grit.... and these all must be done with oil (corn oil is my fav) ... the oil stops the abrasives from loading up and burnishing the steel surface... so it cuts clean
- this stock reduction... usually takes up to a day
- the knife is now heat treated... quenched, tempered for an hour and tempered again, and repolished at 600grit
- now it is degreased... with soap, rubbing alcohol, Tsp..... and let dry.... see if all the streaks are gone... (cause any grease will destroy an even etch!)
- now dip into the appropriate solution (etch) and watch it on the side of the clear vessal..... till the waterings are clear then pull out quick... wash immediately under cool water, then a quick dip in cool water and baking soda, now litely rub with a paper towel soaked in rubbing alcohol.... (be quick with the rinse and neutralize or else your waterings will take on a rusty brown)
-allow to air dry and litely oil it
- the heat treat and etch should also take a day......

now i'm not a speed demon at anything... lol... so I'm not sure how this stack up to other peoples methods

as for the sharpening... this takes me a minute on a 2by72 inch belt grinder.... and you always want to have a sharp edge before the etch

i'm sure I'll think of more later.... this is just a brief summary
- in the summer I will try to gear up and do some swords again... but first I have to get a real shamshir, tulwar, saif, or kilij etc to examine an begin the process of replicating it.. .. it's hard to make something from just pic's... lol

anyhow, gotta hop a flight to halifax....
take care
Greg

Jens Nordlunde · 26th March 2005, 12:57 PM

Gt Obach,

Thank you for your ‘manual’ on making a blade, it is very interesting. I don’t know about others, but I have always wondered how long time it took to make a blade. Th.H.Hendley would have known, as he lived in India at the end of 1800, the time when many of the weapons we collect were made, but he does not mention it for some reason or other.
In the book ‘Persian Steel’ by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. Oxford University Press, 2000, James Allan writes, in the chapter Arms and Armour/Centres of production that the production of arms and armour, under Timur was centralised, and that he had more than one thousand workmen making arms and armour ‘…and to this business they are kept at work throughout the whole of their time in the service to his Highness’. When I read this, I thought that this would have accumulated at a ‘mountain’ of arms and armour, and it did, but over the years; and one must not forget, that they did not only make the weapons, they also had to repair what had been broken. Due to this relatively show production process, and to avoid the enemies use of the weapons again; looting, when a battle had been won, was very important. Weapons from the south are found in armouries to the north and opposite, just like they ‘travelled’ from east to west, and from west to east.

Jens

Ann Feuerbach · 26th March 2005, 02:43 PM

Thanks Greg for the detailed information. Somewhere I have information about annealing to make the ingot easier to forge. I also have information on sword making in Istanbul during the Ottoman empire...I'll try to dig it out. It talks about all the different types of swords for sale and how many workshops.

Gt Obach · 28th March 2005, 07:13 PM

I've also got the "persian steel" book and it's a good read !

Ann: that would be fantastic to see ! I've searched quite abit to find some details on the roasting of ingots and especially the forging.. and only found a small amount

it seems there are tonnes of crucible steel recipes written but it is quite hard to find accounts on forging. Especially the types of hammers, tools, anvils,hammering techniques, etc are almost absent from record ??
- i'm sure it is there but i was only limited to what my univ library could get on loan

Greg

Ann Feuerbach · 29th March 2005, 01:55 PM

I have not found any information on things like hammers, forging techniques etc (apart from the mention of forging at red heat and the time of day). Smiths were not usually literate and no one really cared about their tools. In the archaeological record, craftsmen would have passed down their tools and/or took them with them so we have none. In many parts of Central Asia they did not bury the dead with goods, so we have none from their either. I will keep looking.

25th March 2005, 05:09 PM	#2
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Al Pendray Dr. Ann I have sent you a PM, on Al Pendray. Gene

25th March 2005, 02:42 PM	#1
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Thanks Greg for the info on forging. It is something very important but I have no practical experience at, and need imput from those who do. I would like to know how many man hours it takes to forge a knife or sword from ingot to finished product, using traditional forging methods, also how long it takes to sharpen and clean. For ethno-archaeometallurgical studies this is significant. A standardized nomeclature for patterns does need to be further developed, but is tricky. I have more details on this and only included a bit here. The characteristion of Sham as hypoeutectic is not my "opinion". It was based on previous peoples characterisation (I think Verhoeven, Sashe, and others) together with metallurgical analysis.

25th March 2005, 10:02 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi i'm not sure my methods can be directly compared to the ancient smiths... cause I could find nothing about how they forged their ingots... however with that in mind... a basic ingot starts out to be 6lbs and is cut in half before roasting (however I do make some ingots 3lbs also).... then after the roast it is forged down to 1/4 " by 13 or 16" long - this can take from 1.5 days to 3 days (6-8 hrs a day) - wootz is crazy in nature...sometimes it is extremely hard to forge/reduce at the beginning....being as hard as strike the surface of the anvil... - once the steel is down to 1/4 inch size bar..... it works very easily... like a very plain carbon steel ....so it would take me an hour to two hours to forge out a bowie size knife (keep in mind, that I shaped the bar very quickly with an 8lbs hammer) - now.. I place this in a bucket of wood ash to slow cool overnight - put the blade into a jar of vinnegar for an hour.... this pickle will loosen the scale and it can now be scrubbed off with steel wool - now I like to use coarse files and work my way up to fine files to shape the steel blade - then use coarse stones up to fine.... followed by paper abrasives up to 600grit.... and these all must be done with oil (corn oil is my fav) ... the oil stops the abrasives from loading up and burnishing the steel surface... so it cuts clean - this stock reduction... usually takes up to a day - the knife is now heat treated... quenched, tempered for an hour and tempered again, and repolished at 600grit - now it is degreased... with soap, rubbing alcohol, Tsp..... and let dry.... see if all the streaks are gone... (cause any grease will destroy an even etch!) - now dip into the appropriate solution (etch) and watch it on the side of the clear vessal..... till the waterings are clear then pull out quick... wash immediately under cool water, then a quick dip in cool water and baking soda, now litely rub with a paper towel soaked in rubbing alcohol.... (be quick with the rinse and neutralize or else your waterings will take on a rusty brown) -allow to air dry and litely oil it - the heat treat and etch should also take a day...... now i'm not a speed demon at anything... lol... so I'm not sure how this stack up to other peoples methods as for the sharpening... this takes me a minute on a 2by72 inch belt grinder.... and you always want to have a sharp edge before the etch i'm sure I'll think of more later.... this is just a brief summary - in the summer I will try to gear up and do some swords again... but first I have to get a real shamshir, tulwar, saif, or kilij etc to examine an begin the process of replicating it.. .. it's hard to make something from just pic's... lol anyhow, gotta hop a flight to halifax.... take care Greg

26th March 2005, 12:57 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gt Obach, Thank you for your ‘manual’ on making a blade, it is very interesting. I don’t know about others, but I have always wondered how long time it took to make a blade. Th.H.Hendley would have known, as he lived in India at the end of 1800, the time when many of the weapons we collect were made, but he does not mention it for some reason or other. In the book ‘Persian Steel’ by James Allan and Brian Gilmour. Oxford University Press, 2000, James Allan writes, in the chapter Arms and Armour/Centres of production that the production of arms and armour, under Timur was centralised, and that he had more than one thousand workmen making arms and armour ‘…and to this business they are kept at work throughout the whole of their time in the service to his Highness’. When I read this, I thought that this would have accumulated at a ‘mountain’ of arms and armour, and it did, but over the years; and one must not forget, that they did not only make the weapons, they also had to repair what had been broken. Due to this relatively show production process, and to avoid the enemies use of the weapons again; looting, when a battle had been won, was very important. Weapons from the south are found in armouries to the north and opposite, just like they ‘travelled’ from east to west, and from west to east. Jens

26th March 2005, 02:43 PM	#5
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Thanks Greg for the detailed information. Somewhere I have information about annealing to make the ingot easier to forge. I also have information on sword making in Istanbul during the Ottoman empire...I'll try to dig it out. It talks about all the different types of swords for sale and how many workshops.

28th March 2005, 07:13 PM	#6
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	I've also got the "persian steel" book and it's a good read ! Ann: that would be fantastic to see ! I've searched quite abit to find some details on the roasting of ingots and especially the forging.. and only found a small amount it seems there are tonnes of crucible steel recipes written but it is quite hard to find accounts on forging. Especially the types of hammers, tools, anvils,hammering techniques, etc are almost absent from record ?? - i'm sure it is there but i was only limited to what my univ library could get on loan Greg

29th March 2005, 01:55 PM	#7
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	I have not found any information on things like hammers, forging techniques etc (apart from the mention of forging at red heat and the time of day). Smiths were not usually literate and no one really cared about their tools. In the archaeological record, craftsmen would have passed down their tools and/or took them with them so we have none. In many parts of Central Asia they did not bury the dead with goods, so we have none from their either. I will keep looking.