Engraved Sword w/snakeskin,lizard skin Scabbard

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 02:15 PM

Well, reptile hide is festive.....
The blade and etching look just right to me. I don't think a thin flat edge-sharpened blade on a takouba is touristic at all, and the absense of grooves on such tends to just point to inexpense; the grooves are pretty much decorative, anyway, on a sword so light. Again, of course, this isn't a takouba; I actually think I've hit it on the head; I think it's a rehilt or possibly variant hilt on a "Giant Kinzhal" blade; do you all remember what I'm talking about? Oriental Arms showed us one along with a bunch of other old swords from an attic or something? Blade shape and the total writing coverage match. I note those swords are out of proportion in every dimension but thickness, with handles that are rather uncomfortably large, in my experience; so maybe they aren't users.....

tom hyle · 28th March 2005, 03:48 AM

Kinzhals in the Sudan reminded me of this. I think I spoke too soon; this is probably too small for a "giant kinzhal" blade, though otherwise similar.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2005, 06:23 AM

I agree with Tom in that the hilt on this example seems a bit empty in the crossguard's blade receiving aperture, and clearly this suggests remounting with less than regular skill. I can't really tell much on the sword overall as far as size with such close detail without overall photos, is this supposed to be a kaskara or a large knife/dagger? The thuluth etching is of course consistant with Sudanese items of latter 19th c. during the Mahdia period, but carried into early 20th c. also.
The scabbard and mounts seem of most likely waran (monitor lizard) hide, and are often found on Sudanese knives and daggers.
The thing on these North African edged weapons is that they are still very much a component of everyday costume in most regions, especially in the more remote areas. Therefore it seems quite plausible that weapons were refitted for continued use by often less than skilled tribal owners, and that rather rough items like this have a certain virtue of being authentic tribal pieces even though relatively recent (within last 40 years or more).

Concerning the use of crocodile hides, it seems that a small amount of crocodile hide is often a component of the kaskara hilts in Darfur, and in these regions were primary centers of slaving activity. There is a great deal of fear and respect held toward these reptiles and it seems a degree of totemism in some cases. This was expressed to me in discussion with a man who was a Fur from El Fasher and noted such significance in decoration of weapons. I once suggested that a kaskara seen fully mounted in crocodile hide may have associations with simply looking fearful in the dramatic sense in such troubled regions as involved in the unfortunate commerce of slaving, which has remained a problem even to present times. I also considered that the totemic value may be associated with Beja tribes to the east such as the Beit Ma'ila (Ad Alma=people of the crocodile) and such dramatic motif may be for ceremonial wear. Although these seemed to be plausible enough theories, they were met with pretty negative response and the usual 'tourist piece' rheotoric, and no worthwhile discussion ensued.

Best regards,
Jim

Conogre · 30th March 2005, 01:26 AM

I agree fully with you in regards to totemic value and ceremonial pieces vs "tourist" weapons, Jim, and wouldn't be at all surprised for this to be authentic in that context vs a traditional battle weapon.
Many don't realize that in the Tauregs, for instance, even today, the "evil eye" is one of the most dreaded and protected against factors in their existance.
MANY cultures had and still have weapons very important to them for fighting against the spirit world, something that many westerners truly don't seem to be able to comprehend, thus they often lump them into the dreaded "tourist" group because they can't see any practical use for them and actually see them as silly, thus valueless.
Viewed in that light I have no trouble looking at this as a real artifact, something I said right at the beginning because of the way the wording is laid on the blade.
It DOES sound more impressive when presented as you have done though, without a doubt...well done!
Mike

tom hyle · 31st March 2005, 12:27 AM

The erroneous/culturally-specific idea that edged weapons are obsolete does indeed have much to do with the common overapplication of the dreaded "T" word.

Jim McDougall · 31st March 2005, 02:00 AM

Hi Mike,
Thanks very much for the kind words, and for the support on my thinking on many of these weapons. One of the biggest problems with the commonly held views and perspective on many ethnographic weapons is the failure to understand the symbolism and meanings imbued in the weapons themselves.

I think this is one of the most important features of Dr. Robert Elgood's new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual". In this he reveals important perspective and facts about these very topics..how those who used the weapons actually perceived them and why. Until now, the weapons of India were always simply catalogued in the manner of most European weapons, typologically and and with categoric comparisons, with little consideration or depth concerning uses or meanings. However there were often unfortunately comments best classified as romanticized misperception, much seen with many ethnographic weapons of virtually all types....for example the broadly used 'executioner' label etc.

I think all ethnographic weapons must be considered with this same thinking, and with that perception which students of the keris have already long established, the subjective symbolism imbued in the weapons themselves.

All the best,
Jim

31st March 2005, 02:00 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Hi Mike, Thanks very much for the kind words, and for the support on my thinking on many of these weapons. One of the biggest problems with the commonly held views and perspective on many ethnographic weapons is the failure to understand the symbolism and meanings imbued in the weapons themselves. I think this is one of the most important features of Dr. Robert Elgood's new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual". In this he reveals important perspective and facts about these very topics..how those who used the weapons actually perceived them and why. Until now, the weapons of India were always simply catalogued in the manner of most European weapons, typologically and and with categoric comparisons, with little consideration or depth concerning uses or meanings. However there were often unfortunately comments best classified as romanticized misperception, much seen with many ethnographic weapons of virtually all types....for example the broadly used 'executioner' label etc. I think all ethnographic weapons must be considered with this same thinking, and with that perception which students of the keris have already long established, the subjective symbolism imbued in the weapons themselves. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 31st March 2005 at 02:34 AM.

25th March 2005, 02:15 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Well, reptile hide is festive..... The blade and etching look just right to me. I don't think a thin flat edge-sharpened blade on a takouba is touristic at all, and the absense of grooves on such tends to just point to inexpense; the grooves are pretty much decorative, anyway, on a sword so light. Again, of course, this isn't a takouba; I actually think I've hit it on the head; I think it's a rehilt or possibly variant hilt on a "Giant Kinzhal" blade; do you all remember what I'm talking about? Oriental Arms showed us one along with a bunch of other old swords from an attic or something? Blade shape and the total writing coverage match. I note those swords are out of proportion in every dimension but thickness, with handles that are rather uncomfortably large, in my experience; so maybe they aren't users.....

28th March 2005, 03:48 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Kinzhals in the Sudan reminded me of this. I think I spoke too soon; this is probably too small for a "giant kinzhal" blade, though otherwise similar.

28th March 2005, 06:23 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	I agree with Tom in that the hilt on this example seems a bit empty in the crossguard's blade receiving aperture, and clearly this suggests remounting with less than regular skill. I can't really tell much on the sword overall as far as size with such close detail without overall photos, is this supposed to be a kaskara or a large knife/dagger? The thuluth etching is of course consistant with Sudanese items of latter 19th c. during the Mahdia period, but carried into early 20th c. also. The scabbard and mounts seem of most likely waran (monitor lizard) hide, and are often found on Sudanese knives and daggers. The thing on these North African edged weapons is that they are still very much a component of everyday costume in most regions, especially in the more remote areas. Therefore it seems quite plausible that weapons were refitted for continued use by often less than skilled tribal owners, and that rather rough items like this have a certain virtue of being authentic tribal pieces even though relatively recent (within last 40 years or more). Concerning the use of crocodile hides, it seems that a small amount of crocodile hide is often a component of the kaskara hilts in Darfur, and in these regions were primary centers of slaving activity. There is a great deal of fear and respect held toward these reptiles and it seems a degree of totemism in some cases. This was expressed to me in discussion with a man who was a Fur from El Fasher and noted such significance in decoration of weapons. I once suggested that a kaskara seen fully mounted in crocodile hide may have associations with simply looking fearful in the dramatic sense in such troubled regions as involved in the unfortunate commerce of slaving, which has remained a problem even to present times. I also considered that the totemic value may be associated with Beja tribes to the east such as the Beit Ma'ila (Ad Alma=people of the crocodile) and such dramatic motif may be for ceremonial wear. Although these seemed to be plausible enough theories, they were met with pretty negative response and the usual 'tourist piece' rheotoric, and no worthwhile discussion ensued. Best regards, Jim

30th March 2005, 01:26 AM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I agree fully with you in regards to totemic value and ceremonial pieces vs "tourist" weapons, Jim, and wouldn't be at all surprised for this to be authentic in that context vs a traditional battle weapon. Many don't realize that in the Tauregs, for instance, even today, the "evil eye" is one of the most dreaded and protected against factors in their existance. MANY cultures had and still have weapons very important to them for fighting against the spirit world, something that many westerners truly don't seem to be able to comprehend, thus they often lump them into the dreaded "tourist" group because they can't see any practical use for them and actually see them as silly, thus valueless. Viewed in that light I have no trouble looking at this as a real artifact, something I said right at the beginning because of the way the wording is laid on the blade. It DOES sound more impressive when presented as you have done though, without a doubt...well done! Mike

31st March 2005, 12:27 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The erroneous/culturally-specific idea that edged weapons are obsolete does indeed have much to do with the common overapplication of the dreaded "T" word.