Gun powder measurer ... Islamic ?

ward · 23rd April 2008, 10:47 PM

Mainly you see these out afghanistan and some out of turkey. The brass ones are usually of a late period. When I get some time I will shot some pics of various examples of these powder measures.

fernando · 23rd April 2008, 11:53 PM

Hi Jim,
You're right; in the very beginning there were more mischarges than successfull shots. Either i dreamed or have read that the guys chosen to handle fire weapons, namely cannons, were convicts and the like, such was the probabilty that the things bursted or fired back.
If you think this example i posted is something interesting, wait untill Ward comes up with his material

Hi Stuart,
I now Islam is a vast universe, but still is a reference; when you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat

.

Hi Ward,
Thanks for the info on the provenances; i hope that by "late period" you don't mean 20th century ... i will cry

I will be anxiously expecting pictures of your examples.
Fernando

ward · 24th April 2008, 09:31 PM

here are a couple of powder measures and some with ammunition belts. The pic with 2 measures the top is early turkish mostly likely 17th century. The lower piece typical afghan and the belts are also afghan. Iron is harder to work than brass. You must member there were 3 major afghan wars the 2nd in 1890's and the 3rd in 1919. General rule is that powder was more refined later and smaller amounts could be used so the measures were smaller. Much of the moro armor you see was used against McCarthur in the early part of the the 20th century, The afghans were still using Jezails thru the 1980's, The vietnamese were still using flintlocks in the 1960-1970's. Late is not bad as log as it is put in perspective and context. I am not saying tourist or religous recreations pieces are the way to go, but well made indegous pieces are worthwhile whether they were made in the 16th century or 20th

ward · 25th April 2008, 01:49 AM

powder measures are unusal to find in Islamic pieces. More rare is to find rifle sumas and bullet moulds. they were generally destroyed as not markatable and now pretty scarce

eftihis · 25th April 2008, 08:32 PM

Hallo, these are from a Greek private museum. But this is not a proof of provenance, they can be from dealers that brought them from anywhere!

kahnjar1 · 25th April 2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hallo, these are from a Greek private museum. But this is not a proof of provenance, they can be from dealers that brought them from anywhere!

The bullet mould looks distinctly "colt" to me---certainly not in keeping with the rest of the accessories.

kahnjar1 · 25th April 2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

The bullet mould looks distinctly "colt" to me---certainly not in keeping with the rest of the accessories.

I should have attached these pics to qualify my comment on the "colt" mould.
Regards Stuart

fernando · 25th April 2008, 11:18 PM

Thanks a lot Ward, for both the precious info and the sharing of your excelent examples.
I understand your views in that being a later production doesn't necessarily mean bad stuff. However there is still the question of criteria; i myself prefer things with the seal of antiquity

I see now that Jim was right in that these powder charge measures are referenced in Tirri's book:
as also, after learning their Persian name ( WAZNA-Y-BARUT ), i found them in Stone's Glossary.
Eventually Tirri includes them in the Persia section, whereas Tirri mentions that they exist(ed) throughout Persia and Turkey. Neither quotes Afghanistan, but i can see the involvement, as also your labeled examples.
Amazingly Faganarms has one for sale and tagged it as Ottoman.
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i.../en1store.html
I can see that iron was used in earlier pieces, as also gold and silver inlay in more luxury specimens, and the tubes exterior was often octogonal or even ten sided ( Stone ).
But it appears that brass was used still in the 19th century, although i don't have such certainty in my example. Also i wouldn't know its provenance from amongst the three different regions.
One thing i notice as a "modernity" in this piece is the diverse type of marks in the plunger as, instead of only seeming to regulate half and full charges (?), could also be for the distinct gun types, like pistols and muskets ... just a fantasy of mine

Thanks once again, for above and also possible future coments

.
Fernando

23rd April 2008, 11:53 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, You're right; in the very beginning there were more mischarges than successfull shots. Either i dreamed or have read that the guys chosen to handle fire weapons, namely cannons, were convicts and the like, such was the probabilty that the things bursted or fired back. If you think this example i posted is something interesting, wait untill Ward comes up with his material Hi Stuart, I now Islam is a vast universe, but still is a reference; when you don't have a dog, you hunt with a cat . Hi Ward, Thanks for the info on the provenances; i hope that by "late period" you don't mean 20th century ... i will cry I will be anxiously expecting pictures of your examples. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 24th April 2008 at 12:05 AM.

24th April 2008, 09:31 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	here are a couple of powder measures and some with ammunition belts. The pic with 2 measures the top is early turkish mostly likely 17th century. The lower piece typical afghan and the belts are also afghan. Iron is harder to work than brass. You must member there were 3 major afghan wars the 2nd in 1890's and the 3rd in 1919. General rule is that powder was more refined later and smaller amounts could be used so the measures were smaller. Much of the moro armor you see was used against McCarthur in the early part of the the 20th century, The afghans were still using Jezails thru the 1980's, The vietnamese were still using flintlocks in the 1960-1970's. Late is not bad as log as it is put in perspective and context. I am not saying tourist or religous recreations pieces are the way to go, but well made indegous pieces are worthwhile whether they were made in the 16th century or 20th Attached Images

25th April 2008, 08:32 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hallo, these are from a Greek private museum. But this is not a proof of provenance, they can be from dealers that brought them from anywhere! Attached Images

25th April 2008, 11:18 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks a lot Ward, for both the precious info and the sharing of your excelent examples. I understand your views in that being a later production doesn't necessarily mean bad stuff. However there is still the question of criteria; i myself prefer things with the seal of antiquity I see now that Jim was right in that these powder charge measures are referenced in Tirri's book: as also, after learning their Persian name ( WAZNA-Y-BARUT ), i found them in Stone's Glossary. Eventually Tirri includes them in the Persia section, whereas Tirri mentions that they exist(ed) throughout Persia and Turkey. Neither quotes Afghanistan, but i can see the involvement, as also your labeled examples. Amazingly Faganarms has one for sale and tagged it as Ottoman. http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i.../en1store.html I can see that iron was used in earlier pieces, as also gold and silver inlay in more luxury specimens, and the tubes exterior was often octogonal or even ten sided ( Stone ). But it appears that brass was used still in the 19th century, although i don't have such certainty in my example. Also i wouldn't know its provenance from amongst the three different regions. One thing i notice as a "modernity" in this piece is the diverse type of marks in the plunger as, instead of only seeming to regulate half and full charges (?), could also be for the distinct gun types, like pistols and muskets ... just a fantasy of mine Thanks once again, for above and also possible future coments . Fernando Attached Images

23rd April 2008, 10:47 PM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Mainly you see these out afghanistan and some out of turkey. The brass ones are usually of a late period. When I get some time I will shot some pics of various examples of these powder measures.

25th April 2008, 01:49 AM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	powder measures are unusal to find in Islamic pieces. More rare is to find rifle sumas and bullet moulds. they were generally destroyed as not markatable and now pretty scarce