Engraved Sword w/snakeskin,lizard skin Scabbard

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 06:51 AM

Monetary appraisals are against our noncommercial policy, sorry. The feruling area inside the guard would normally bee filled in with grip material on Turkish, and I think Persian versions of this guard style; what of kaskaras? This one seems empty, and that might be a sign of nontraditional/ignorant modern (not neccessarily foreign though) rehilting. Some folks get very disturbed at rehilting, but if done it was surely done because the old hilt was missing or very badly damaged (for some reason a certain percentage of people always assume I took off a perfectly good handle and threw it away or something, when I say I rehilted a sword, not that that's not just what traditional people commonly did with foreign ones they got). AFAIK this blade almost has to be (more or less) Sudanic African, which I say because of the style of the etching, and Conogre's lizard powers help, too, of course; the mystery is over whether the guard (and handle) is original/foreign/or what, and where/what tribe. I think the flat blade bevelled only at the edge (we think of this as machettelike; I think it shows the African descent of machete) is fairly common; I haven't owned kaskara though; only takouba. Also, I specifically wonder if those brown dots on the handle aren't rusty rivets that are under the leather, and showing thru.

Conogre · 25th March 2005, 07:24 AM

Honestly, this piece just feels "wrong" as far as a real weapon is concerned, with my honest opinion being that it is either a ceremonial piece, depending upon what the blade inscriptions would translate to or else purposefully assembled to resemble an antique weapon by a tribal smith in hopes of gaining a substantial sale.
Even in N. Africa, they aren't always above fleecing something other than sheep. **grin**
Another possibility is that it's an old tourist sword that may have been intentionally made just to appeal to tourists and may have been sold as such in a bazaar.
Mike

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 07:39 AM

I must say, that if you're basing that on thinness and flatness, I don't think those are valid bases for nonfightingness in an African sword; fairly typically (though far from universally) the African has prefferred the quickness and lightness of a thin sword, which also cuts more deeply more easily, though not so well thru anything hard, of course, like bone or armour. Again, takouba I've seen are typically much like this. I know this isn't a takouba; just making a cross-example. Also, of course, one saves on metal, but I truly think that's an over-cited motivation. I think they wanted them like that, for valid martial arts reasons; one encounters this in China, too, in a way; that the better the swordsman the more precise the angular control, the more shockless the parries, the thinner, lighter, faster the sword can be. I think it's an old "real" blade; the dress I'm not sure about, especially the leather-covered parts; I, too feel something "wrong" but I can't put my finger on it. The blade closely reminds me of those on the weird Africishly etched "giant kinzhals"?

Conogre · 25th March 2005, 08:39 AM

I agree fully on your thoughts in regard to African weapons, Tom, just not kaskaras or even takoubas, which are heavily Arabic in influence and actually atypical for what is commonly thought of as an "African" weapon.
Most of the Bedouin or Taureg swords that I've seen with completely flat blades were primarily tourist pieces.
As I've said before, my very first ethno sword was a kaskara with a rather poor and very thin native made blade but it is none the less lethal because of it and is definitely fullered.
True Telek daggers, on the other hand, are notorious for having very thin, flat non-fullered blades so the blade shape alone doesn't make it "wrong", although many of these do tend to show hammer marks and such, not just smooth, flat metal.
I have to admit that the "wrong" feel to this sword is hard to define, and I think Ariel may have hit on it in the other, original (and hijacked...sorry, sorry, sorry **blush**) thread when he made the comment about scabbards made out of the whole crocodile....simply put, too much reptile leather to be believable, and likewise, the same about the Arabic inscriptions/etching/lettering, just too much in the wrong places!

Yannis · 25th March 2005, 08:40 AM

I was confused because it is the same sword in two threads. That’s no good.

I say, not for this sword but generally speaking, that people think important the leather of a snake or a lizard. But except of the esthetic value, the real value of lizard or snake skin is less than a cow hide for an African. Actually it is free if he kills the snake and he has not to be brave to do this. But for the European or the American tourist a snake skin gives a touch of adventure and authenticity on the object.

I don’t know if there is program of ecological protection for the African snakes, but they are really in danger of the edged weapons collectors

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 02:15 PM

Well, reptile hide is festive.....
The blade and etching look just right to me. I don't think a thin flat edge-sharpened blade on a takouba is touristic at all, and the absense of grooves on such tends to just point to inexpense; the grooves are pretty much decorative, anyway, on a sword so light. Again, of course, this isn't a takouba; I actually think I've hit it on the head; I think it's a rehilt or possibly variant hilt on a "Giant Kinzhal" blade; do you all remember what I'm talking about? Oriental Arms showed us one along with a bunch of other old swords from an attic or something? Blade shape and the total writing coverage match. I note those swords are out of proportion in every dimension but thickness, with handles that are rather uncomfortably large, in my experience; so maybe they aren't users.....

tom hyle · 28th March 2005, 03:48 AM

Kinzhals in the Sudan reminded me of this. I think I spoke too soon; this is probably too small for a "giant kinzhal" blade, though otherwise similar.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2005, 06:23 AM

I agree with Tom in that the hilt on this example seems a bit empty in the crossguard's blade receiving aperture, and clearly this suggests remounting with less than regular skill. I can't really tell much on the sword overall as far as size with such close detail without overall photos, is this supposed to be a kaskara or a large knife/dagger? The thuluth etching is of course consistant with Sudanese items of latter 19th c. during the Mahdia period, but carried into early 20th c. also.
The scabbard and mounts seem of most likely waran (monitor lizard) hide, and are often found on Sudanese knives and daggers.
The thing on these North African edged weapons is that they are still very much a component of everyday costume in most regions, especially in the more remote areas. Therefore it seems quite plausible that weapons were refitted for continued use by often less than skilled tribal owners, and that rather rough items like this have a certain virtue of being authentic tribal pieces even though relatively recent (within last 40 years or more).

Concerning the use of crocodile hides, it seems that a small amount of crocodile hide is often a component of the kaskara hilts in Darfur, and in these regions were primary centers of slaving activity. There is a great deal of fear and respect held toward these reptiles and it seems a degree of totemism in some cases. This was expressed to me in discussion with a man who was a Fur from El Fasher and noted such significance in decoration of weapons. I once suggested that a kaskara seen fully mounted in crocodile hide may have associations with simply looking fearful in the dramatic sense in such troubled regions as involved in the unfortunate commerce of slaving, which has remained a problem even to present times. I also considered that the totemic value may be associated with Beja tribes to the east such as the Beit Ma'ila (Ad Alma=people of the crocodile) and such dramatic motif may be for ceremonial wear. Although these seemed to be plausible enough theories, they were met with pretty negative response and the usual 'tourist piece' rheotoric, and no worthwhile discussion ensued.

Best regards,
Jim

25th March 2005, 06:51 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Monetary appraisals are against our noncommercial policy, sorry. The feruling area inside the guard would normally bee filled in with grip material on Turkish, and I think Persian versions of this guard style; what of kaskaras? This one seems empty, and that might be a sign of nontraditional/ignorant modern (not neccessarily foreign though) rehilting. Some folks get very disturbed at rehilting, but if done it was surely done because the old hilt was missing or very badly damaged (for some reason a certain percentage of people always assume I took off a perfectly good handle and threw it away or something, when I say I rehilted a sword, not that that's not just what traditional people commonly did with foreign ones they got). AFAIK this blade almost has to be (more or less) Sudanic African, which I say because of the style of the etching, and Conogre's lizard powers help, too, of course; the mystery is over whether the guard (and handle) is original/foreign/or what, and where/what tribe. I think the flat blade bevelled only at the edge (we think of this as machettelike; I think it shows the African descent of machete) is fairly common; I haven't owned kaskara though; only takouba. Also, I specifically wonder if those brown dots on the handle aren't rusty rivets that are under the leather, and showing thru. Last edited by tom hyle; 25th March 2005 at 07:00 AM. Reason: left out 1/2 a sentence

25th March 2005, 07:24 AM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Honestly, this piece just feels "wrong" as far as a real weapon is concerned, with my honest opinion being that it is either a ceremonial piece, depending upon what the blade inscriptions would translate to or else purposefully assembled to resemble an antique weapon by a tribal smith in hopes of gaining a substantial sale. Even in N. Africa, they aren't always above fleecing something other than sheep. grin Another possibility is that it's an old tourist sword that may have been intentionally made just to appeal to tourists and may have been sold as such in a bazaar. Mike

25th March 2005, 07:39 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I must say, that if you're basing that on thinness and flatness, I don't think those are valid bases for nonfightingness in an African sword; fairly typically (though far from universally) the African has prefferred the quickness and lightness of a thin sword, which also cuts more deeply more easily, though not so well thru anything hard, of course, like bone or armour. Again, takouba I've seen are typically much like this. I know this isn't a takouba; just making a cross-example. Also, of course, one saves on metal, but I truly think that's an over-cited motivation. I think they wanted them like that, for valid martial arts reasons; one encounters this in China, too, in a way; that the better the swordsman the more precise the angular control, the more shockless the parries, the thinner, lighter, faster the sword can be. I think it's an old "real" blade; the dress I'm not sure about, especially the leather-covered parts; I, too feel something "wrong" but I can't put my finger on it. The blade closely reminds me of those on the weird Africishly etched "giant kinzhals"?

25th March 2005, 08:39 AM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I agree fully on your thoughts in regard to African weapons, Tom, just not kaskaras or even takoubas, which are heavily Arabic in influence and actually atypical for what is commonly thought of as an "African" weapon. Most of the Bedouin or Taureg swords that I've seen with completely flat blades were primarily tourist pieces. As I've said before, my very first ethno sword was a kaskara with a rather poor and very thin native made blade but it is none the less lethal because of it and is definitely fullered. True Telek daggers, on the other hand, are notorious for having very thin, flat non-fullered blades so the blade shape alone doesn't make it "wrong", although many of these do tend to show hammer marks and such, not just smooth, flat metal. I have to admit that the "wrong" feel to this sword is hard to define, and I think Ariel may have hit on it in the other, original (and hijacked...sorry, sorry, sorry blush) thread when he made the comment about scabbards made out of the whole crocodile....simply put, too much reptile leather to be believable, and likewise, the same about the Arabic inscriptions/etching/lettering, just too much in the wrong places!

25th March 2005, 08:40 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I was confused because it is the same sword in two threads. That’s no good. I say, not for this sword but generally speaking, that people think important the leather of a snake or a lizard. But except of the esthetic value, the real value of lizard or snake skin is less than a cow hide for an African. Actually it is free if he kills the snake and he has not to be brave to do this. But for the European or the American tourist a snake skin gives a touch of adventure and authenticity on the object. I don’t know if there is program of ecological protection for the African snakes, but they are really in danger of the edged weapons collectors

25th March 2005, 02:15 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Well, reptile hide is festive..... The blade and etching look just right to me. I don't think a thin flat edge-sharpened blade on a takouba is touristic at all, and the absense of grooves on such tends to just point to inexpense; the grooves are pretty much decorative, anyway, on a sword so light. Again, of course, this isn't a takouba; I actually think I've hit it on the head; I think it's a rehilt or possibly variant hilt on a "Giant Kinzhal" blade; do you all remember what I'm talking about? Oriental Arms showed us one along with a bunch of other old swords from an attic or something? Blade shape and the total writing coverage match. I note those swords are out of proportion in every dimension but thickness, with handles that are rather uncomfortably large, in my experience; so maybe they aren't users.....

28th March 2005, 03:48 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Kinzhals in the Sudan reminded me of this. I think I spoke too soon; this is probably too small for a "giant kinzhal" blade, though otherwise similar.

28th March 2005, 06:23 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,593	I agree with Tom in that the hilt on this example seems a bit empty in the crossguard's blade receiving aperture, and clearly this suggests remounting with less than regular skill. I can't really tell much on the sword overall as far as size with such close detail without overall photos, is this supposed to be a kaskara or a large knife/dagger? The thuluth etching is of course consistant with Sudanese items of latter 19th c. during the Mahdia period, but carried into early 20th c. also. The scabbard and mounts seem of most likely waran (monitor lizard) hide, and are often found on Sudanese knives and daggers. The thing on these North African edged weapons is that they are still very much a component of everyday costume in most regions, especially in the more remote areas. Therefore it seems quite plausible that weapons were refitted for continued use by often less than skilled tribal owners, and that rather rough items like this have a certain virtue of being authentic tribal pieces even though relatively recent (within last 40 years or more). Concerning the use of crocodile hides, it seems that a small amount of crocodile hide is often a component of the kaskara hilts in Darfur, and in these regions were primary centers of slaving activity. There is a great deal of fear and respect held toward these reptiles and it seems a degree of totemism in some cases. This was expressed to me in discussion with a man who was a Fur from El Fasher and noted such significance in decoration of weapons. I once suggested that a kaskara seen fully mounted in crocodile hide may have associations with simply looking fearful in the dramatic sense in such troubled regions as involved in the unfortunate commerce of slaving, which has remained a problem even to present times. I also considered that the totemic value may be associated with Beja tribes to the east such as the Beit Ma'ila (Ad Alma=people of the crocodile) and such dramatic motif may be for ceremonial wear. Although these seemed to be plausible enough theories, they were met with pretty negative response and the usual 'tourist piece' rheotoric, and no worthwhile discussion ensued. Best regards, Jim