Silver mounted badek for coments

kronckew · 20th April 2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Badek ... badik ... badiik. I see all three versions out there; which one would be correct ?
...
Would anyone care to coment on it ?
I would be most gratefull.
Fernando

as we are transliterating a word from a non western language into a western phonetic alphabet, all of them are valid, as would other spellings with the same sound...even amongst native english speakers from differing countries, ie. USA, UK, Australia & NZ, the pronunciation of vowels, AEIOU (& sometimes Y) has drifted. i personally prefer 'badek' for my similar but lesser one ('badik' is used by buttin on the forum's sister Reference Site ) the 'badek' i was sold by a malaysian dealer was spelled 'badek' in his ads for it. (not this one tho)

fernando · 20th April 2008, 07:23 PM

Thank you for your kind words, Barry and Newsteel

I thaught i would post today the decoration on the scabbard opposite side. Yesterday i didn't notice that the two sides had a different detail ... i had bought this piece a couple hours before i took the first pictures

.

Thank you Kronckew, for the hint on the spelling. Once you mention the different vowels pronunciation amongst the various english speaking natives, i can not ignore that latinic languages have a completely distinct sound for them. Being phonetics the main reason for the different transliterations, i guess that Badik will be the closest sound/spell for me to adopt

Fernando
PS
Isn't Buttin French ( latinic) speaking ?

CharlesS · 20th April 2008, 10:36 PM

I tend to be very conservative about dating...at least that's what I am told.

I would say the blade is 19th century. The silver work is a tougher call because similar to identical patterns are used today in low grade silver work for both new pieces and restorations.

The central panel of silver work is more common(today) than the work at the scabbard mouth in my opinion, so I think in combination this is very old work, certainly no later then very early 20th Century.....just my opinion.

Gonzalo G · 20th April 2008, 11:33 PM

Excuse me, does any of you have historical references about this kind of work in silver? I mean, it can only be made chiselled from "above" with the scabbard already formed and soldered, or it can be made with a combination of repousee and chiselling, from both sides of the open piece, and the scabbard finally been closed and soldered, which is a very difficult thing to do as the fitting among the borders would be distorted by the previous work. I´ve read many times the use of the word "repousee" applied to both kind of techniques. Chiselling can also be made creating different levels on the surface (volumes), and not only as a plain one level draw. Thank you.

asomotif · 23rd April 2008, 12:32 PM

Dear Gonzalo,

Nice badek. Good addition to any collection.
I have no historical info on this workmanship.
But I am told that this work needs working from both sides of the metal sheet.
If this is done the old way a lot of work and time goed into it.
The metal must be heated and cooled down between the forging to prevent it from cracking.

Battara · 23rd April 2008, 09:19 PM

Gonzalo, chiseling refers to more of an engraving process where material is removed from the surface. Repousse is where the sheet metal must be thin and hammered from both sides (one side would be called chasing). Asomotif is right in that the material for repousse must be reheated constantly.

Nice repousse on the badik scabbard.

fernando · 24th April 2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

... Nice repousse on the badik scabbard.

Nice to hear that, José.
I see that this time i've got myself a decent piece.
Fernando

RhysMichael · 24th April 2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

as we are transliterating a word from a non western language into a western phonetic alphabet, all of them are valid, as would other spellings with the same sound...even amongst native english speakers from differing countries, ie. USA, UK, Australia & NZ, the pronunciation of vowels, AEIOU (& sometimes Y) has drifted. i personally prefer 'badek' for my similar but lesser one ('badik' is used by buttin on the forum's sister Reference Site ) the 'badek' i was sold by a malaysian dealer was spelled 'badek' in his ads for it. (not this one tho)

A very good point on the naming, how we see it written is often westernized. The other thing to remember is that there are a number of different peoples living close to each other each with thier own dialects in this part of the world. The name for the same blade would be differerent in Gayo than Alas, still different in Sumatran. Batak etc. this particular one is listed as Badek, Bade, Badee, Badi, Badi Badi, Badik, Badik Badik and Badit in "Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipeligo.

A. G. Maisey · 25th April 2008, 12:33 AM

In Jawa this type of dagger is named "badhik"; badik is acceptable.

The type of silver work on the one under discussion appears to be exactly the same type of work that is currently used to make pendok and other silver items in Jogja and surrounds. This is done by first fabricating the form, then filling it with wax and applying the motif by hammering with different types of punches.When the work is finished the wax is removed by boiling the pendok. During the work process the pendok is held firm in a bed of hard wax.

I understand that the Dutch introduced this silver working technique in the 19th century.

The photos with this post are of two badhik in my possession. According to Javanese people with whom I have spoken and who have some knowledge in this field, these two badhik are of Javanese origin.

Mark · 25th April 2008, 02:55 PM

Interesting information on the manufacturing technique. It is almost exactly the same as is used in Burma, No. Thailand and Laos to make repouseed silver. Instead of wax a heavy resin is used. The work is don in stages, between which the resin is melted and re-set to make room for the next level of detail. I wonder if that technique has a Dutch origin as well, though it would be surprising that it would reach that far north, essentially leap-frogging a large area in between.

20th April 2008, 07:23 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your kind words, Barry and Newsteel I thaught i would post today the decoration on the scabbard opposite side. Yesterday i didn't notice that the two sides had a different detail ... i had bought this piece a couple hours before i took the first pictures . Thank you Kronckew, for the hint on the spelling. Once you mention the different vowels pronunciation amongst the various english speaking natives, i can not ignore that latinic languages have a completely distinct sound for them. Being phonetics the main reason for the different transliterations, i guess that Badik will be the closest sound/spell for me to adopt Fernando PS Isn't Buttin French ( latinic) speaking ? Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th April 2008 at 07:34 PM.

25th April 2008, 12:33 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,035	In Jawa this type of dagger is named "badhik"; badik is acceptable. The type of silver work on the one under discussion appears to be exactly the same type of work that is currently used to make pendok and other silver items in Jogja and surrounds. This is done by first fabricating the form, then filling it with wax and applying the motif by hammering with different types of punches.When the work is finished the wax is removed by boiling the pendok. During the work process the pendok is held firm in a bed of hard wax. I understand that the Dutch introduced this silver working technique in the 19th century. The photos with this post are of two badhik in my possession. According to Javanese people with whom I have spoken and who have some knowledge in this field, these two badhik are of Javanese origin. Attached Images

20th April 2008, 10:36 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I tend to be very conservative about dating...at least that's what I am told. I would say the blade is 19th century. The silver work is a tougher call because similar to identical patterns are used today in low grade silver work for both new pieces and restorations. The central panel of silver work is more common(today) than the work at the scabbard mouth in my opinion, so I think in combination this is very old work, certainly no later then very early 20th Century.....just my opinion.

20th April 2008, 11:33 PM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Excuse me, does any of you have historical references about this kind of work in silver? I mean, it can only be made chiselled from "above" with the scabbard already formed and soldered, or it can be made with a combination of repousee and chiselling, from both sides of the open piece, and the scabbard finally been closed and soldered, which is a very difficult thing to do as the fitting among the borders would be distorted by the previous work. I´ve read many times the use of the word "repousee" applied to both kind of techniques. Chiselling can also be made creating different levels on the surface (volumes), and not only as a plain one level draw. Thank you.

23rd April 2008, 12:32 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Dear Gonzalo, Nice badek. Good addition to any collection. I have no historical info on this workmanship. But I am told that this work needs working from both sides of the metal sheet. If this is done the old way a lot of work and time goed into it. The metal must be heated and cooled down between the forging to prevent it from cracking.

23rd April 2008, 09:19 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,300	Gonzalo, chiseling refers to more of an engraving process where material is removed from the surface. Repousse is where the sheet metal must be thin and hammered from both sides (one side would be called chasing). Asomotif is right in that the material for repousse must be reheated constantly. Nice repousse on the badik scabbard.

25th April 2008, 02:55 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Interesting information on the manufacturing technique. It is almost exactly the same as is used in Burma, No. Thailand and Laos to make repouseed silver. Instead of wax a heavy resin is used. The work is don in stages, between which the resin is melted and re-set to make room for the next level of detail. I wonder if that technique has a Dutch origin as well, though it would be surprising that it would reach that far north, essentially leap-frogging a large area in between.