why sabre ?

wolviex · 24th March 2005, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

during WWII, the Poles were still attacking German tanks with their 1921 pattern (also curved).

Dear Ariel, unfortunately just what you have wrote above is just a historical mistake, still repeating by worlds historians (by some Polish also). Polish soldiers attacking German tanks with lances and sabres is just an effect of Nazist's propaganda. And the history is: in the september 1939 the 18. Pomorski Uhlans Regiment attacked at Krojatany German infantry. They charged with sabres of course on foot soldiers. Unfortunately for them infantry was covered by tanks and armour vehicles which came out of forest and break the Polish attack. Germans during the attack made the film, and the Italian journalist (present on place) made a story about Polish, backward, old-fashioned army, and stupid soldiers thinking that tanks are made of cardboard. Then it was used by soviets and nomen omen by Polish allies to justify some political movements. Today it's sometimes quote as a symbol of Polish bravery, but anyway in Poland it's somehow sound negatively (I mean Polish historians, average peoples doesn't know anything or very little about history, thought

).

Sorry for this digression, but as a historian it is my duty to clear some things, no matter I'm Polish or not

Best regards!

ariel · 25th March 2005, 12:06 AM

Never meant it to be a slur on "backward Poles".
I know, of course, that the circumstances of this battle are in dispute. No matter what, whether it was a true story or a legend, for me it was always a touching example of gallantry.
Not much different from Colonel Michal Wolodyjowski, the battle of Monte Cassino, the Warsaw rebellion or, in a different time and place, The Charge of the Light Brigade or... "damn the torpedoes!"
My hat is off to these people.

fearn · 25th March 2005, 02:34 AM

I have to agree with Ariel, about the chance of losing your weapon upon impaling your foe.

I'm trying to find the reference at the moment, but I'd also point out that there was a thrusting cavalry sword of the 19th Century nicknamed "The Wrist Breaker" for the other problem it had--fighters using it were likely to break their wrists either as the sword hit, or when trying to get their blades unstuck. There are worse problems than losing one's weapon....

That said, I think some regiments carried both a straight thrusting sword and a curved slashing one, the thrusting sword taking the place of a lance.

OTOH, there is that interesting enigma known as the estoc. It was obviously for thrusting, but so far as I know, its use is pretty unclear. Was it essentially a pry bar for taking the armor off of knights, or something?

Fearn

Rick · 25th March 2005, 03:48 AM

Fearn , here's a little about the Patton Sabre comparing it to the 'Wrist Breaker' .
I think it may have been nicknamed more for it's weight .

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/Patton.shtml

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 07:16 AM

Haven't read all the replies cause I'm about to go to sleep (or try), and it's been a while since I've answered this question. First, a curved blade cuts better, because it starts the cut at a single point, and also because if backleaning (true or Tartaric sabre if you will) it draws itself through the cut as a natural effect of its shape moving thru flesh; sorry, my linguistic ability is down at the moment. This automatically gives you the increased cutting power and greater ease in withdrawal of a sliding cut; this especially helps you keep holding the sword when you cut someone your horse is running past. Also, when backleaning, it has the strength of the edge bevel angle it has, but the cutting power of a finer angle (Burton explains this well). Try to flex a highly curved blade over your knee (one sharp on the convex edge, if at all; don't cut your knee or hands!

); what happens? It tries to turn to make the force distribute across the width, rather than the thickness; this makes it stronger against this kind of force, encountered primarily in parrying and in withdrawing the blade from wounds, and also tends to help turn its spine into a parry; a usually favoured method popularly known from Japan, but actually seen in Europe, PI, N Africa, etc. Also, when backleaning, the around the shield backhand thrust; this is often a neglected point; the "West" seems to have come to think of the shield as a fashion accessory or something. Give me a sheild and a machete and a smallsword is a joke. BTW, those straight things are not sabres. I know they called them that; that's military/beaurocratic organization for ya; put it in a category we already have

they're really more a type of smallsword, or to put it differently, a spear built like a sword. A real sabre is for cutting. Top of the head for youse, anyway; maybe more later when I come back and read yours. One other thing no-one's brought up now, but contradicts a popular misconception that we've discussed before, and that seems somewhat related; serated swords do cut better, and have at least one other advantage, as well. yes, I can tell you why, but I'm tired right now; search the old forum; I've explained it there. As for straight double-edged sword? It is Jack of all trades, master of none. A compromise weapon; a backcurved sword slashes and back-hand-thrusts better, a forward curved sword chops and for-hand-hrusts better, but the straight double-edger can do it all to some degree, and though it's certainly not much at the backhand thrust, it does pack a nasty backhand cut that can be used around behind the opponant's shield. Also, you get a spare sharp edge you can flip the sword to (if it hasn't a knucklebow) for those long battles where it gets dull; seriously, one reads this in old European accounts, and it makes good sense.

sirupate · 25th March 2005, 07:54 AM

The sabre when used in recorded duels against the premier thrusting sword the epee, came out on top. The attributed reason for this was that the sabre had the ability to do a greater variety of ripostes.
The British cavalry opted for a thrusting sword in 1903, which was finally approved by King EdwardVII in 1908 (who would have preferred the British cavalry to be using a Sabre).
The idea behind it was sound in principle and when practising against melons (the traditional British Cavalry method) it worked very well, however when charging and thrusting with the 1908 pattern against a real opponent the stress on the shoulder on retraction was immense, and led to people being dragged of their horses and doing untold damage to their shoulders.
Give me a sabre or katana any day

Cheers Simon

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 02:05 PM

Ariel, Why do we ever disagree?

very salient point, too, vis a vis the deadliness of thrusts that death is not the idea; disabling can be as good or better.

25th March 2005, 07:16 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Haven't read all the replies cause I'm about to go to sleep (or try), and it's been a while since I've answered this question. First, a curved blade cuts better, because it starts the cut at a single point, and also because if backleaning (true or Tartaric sabre if you will) it draws itself through the cut as a natural effect of its shape moving thru flesh; sorry, my linguistic ability is down at the moment. This automatically gives you the increased cutting power and greater ease in withdrawal of a sliding cut; this especially helps you keep holding the sword when you cut someone your horse is running past. Also, when backleaning, it has the strength of the edge bevel angle it has, but the cutting power of a finer angle (Burton explains this well). Try to flex a highly curved blade over your knee (one sharp on the convex edge, if at all; don't cut your knee or hands! ); what happens? It tries to turn to make the force distribute across the width, rather than the thickness; this makes it stronger against this kind of force, encountered primarily in parrying and in withdrawing the blade from wounds, and also tends to help turn its spine into a parry; a usually favoured method popularly known from Japan, but actually seen in Europe, PI, N Africa, etc. Also, when backleaning, the around the shield backhand thrust; this is often a neglected point; the "West" seems to have come to think of the shield as a fashion accessory or something. Give me a sheild and a machete and a smallsword is a joke. BTW, those straight things are not sabres. I know they called them that; that's military/beaurocratic organization for ya; put it in a category we already have they're really more a type of smallsword, or to put it differently, a spear built like a sword. A real sabre is for cutting. Top of the head for youse, anyway; maybe more later when I come back and read yours. One other thing no-one's brought up now, but contradicts a popular misconception that we've discussed before, and that seems somewhat related; serated swords do cut better, and have at least one other advantage, as well. yes, I can tell you why, but I'm tired right now; search the old forum; I've explained it there. As for straight double-edged sword? It is Jack of all trades, master of none. A compromise weapon; a backcurved sword slashes and back-hand-thrusts better, a forward curved sword chops and for-hand-hrusts better, but the straight double-edger can do it all to some degree, and though it's certainly not much at the backhand thrust, it does pack a nasty backhand cut that can be used around behind the opponant's shield. Also, you get a spare sharp edge you can flip the sword to (if it hasn't a knucklebow) for those long battles where it gets dull; seriously, one reads this in old European accounts, and it makes good sense. Last edited by tom hyle; 25th March 2005 at 07:30 AM.

25th March 2005, 02:05 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I read 'em Ariel, Why do we ever disagree? very salient point, too, vis a vis the deadliness of thrusts that death is not the idea; disabling can be as good or better.

25th March 2005, 12:06 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Never meant it to be a slur on "backward Poles". I know, of course, that the circumstances of this battle are in dispute. No matter what, whether it was a true story or a legend, for me it was always a touching example of gallantry. Not much different from Colonel Michal Wolodyjowski, the battle of Monte Cassino, the Warsaw rebellion or, in a different time and place, The Charge of the Light Brigade or... "damn the torpedoes!" My hat is off to these people.

25th March 2005, 02:34 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I have to agree with Ariel, about the chance of losing your weapon upon impaling your foe. I'm trying to find the reference at the moment, but I'd also point out that there was a thrusting cavalry sword of the 19th Century nicknamed "The Wrist Breaker" for the other problem it had--fighters using it were likely to break their wrists either as the sword hit, or when trying to get their blades unstuck. There are worse problems than losing one's weapon.... That said, I think some regiments carried both a straight thrusting sword and a curved slashing one, the thrusting sword taking the place of a lance. OTOH, there is that interesting enigma known as the estoc. It was obviously for thrusting, but so far as I know, its use is pretty unclear. Was it essentially a pry bar for taking the armor off of knights, or something? Fearn

25th March 2005, 03:48 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Fearn , here's a little about the Patton Sabre comparing it to the 'Wrist Breaker' . I think it may have been nicknamed more for it's weight . http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/Patton.shtml

25th March 2005, 07:54 AM	#6
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	The sabre when used in recorded duels against the premier thrusting sword the epee, came out on top. The attributed reason for this was that the sabre had the ability to do a greater variety of ripostes. The British cavalry opted for a thrusting sword in 1903, which was finally approved by King EdwardVII in 1908 (who would have preferred the British cavalry to be using a Sabre). The idea behind it was sound in principle and when practising against melons (the traditional British Cavalry method) it worked very well, however when charging and thrusting with the 1908 pattern against a real opponent the stress on the shoulder on retraction was immense, and led to people being dragged of their horses and doing untold damage to their shoulders. Give me a sabre or katana any day Cheers Simon