Interesting Bayonet?

fernando · 12th April 2008, 09:02 PM

Lebel copy allright Kronckew.
This rifle was used by the French Foreign Legion, right ?
So North Africa makes all sense ...
Fernando

Tim Simmons · 12th April 2008, 09:37 PM

I have been looking in a few books and I think this is the version. I do not see North African work here. French West Africa, perhaps even Dahomey taken from an Amazon when the French took Dahomey

in your dreams. The book this picture comes from "Swords & Bayonets" R.J.Wilkinnson.Latham suggests that the quillion was removed 1916. Some people think the auther may be a God.

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2008, 12:32 AM

That book is a pretty good resource, as shown in your comparison Tim! Wish I had my copy handy

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 13th April 2008, 10:32 AM

It could equally be the Gras bayonet, both the Gras and the Lebel are not a true round spike. The hole in the handle in this view, a deliberate act? looks like an imitation of the stud on the Gras handle. It might just be inspired by a general bayonet form. There are many versions from several countries which have elements that could have been the model

kronckew · 13th April 2008, 11:45 AM

the french seemed to have a passion for the epee style bayonets, in the gras and the lebel. the gras being more bladelike and the forerunner of the cruciform lebel. they both had the distinctive curved 'blade breaker' lower guard in the 1886 lebel and the last of the french blade-like sword bayonets, the 1874 gras. as the locals were capable of making a bladed copy, and less likely to make a cruciform version, i'd say the lebel is more likely tho it may be a transition type between the two.

the gras bayonet was in use worldwide for a long time:

* The French wars during the useful "life-span" of this bayonet were:
o French Indo-China in 1873-1874 and again in 1882-1883;
o Sino-French War 1883-1885;
o Madagascar Wars 1883-1885 and 1895;
o 1st Mandingo-French War 1883-1886;
o 1st Dahomeyan-French War 1889-1990;
o 2nd Dahomeyan-French War 1892-1894;
o 2nd Mandingo-French War 1894-1895;
o Conquest of Chad 1897-1914;
o 3rd Mandingo-French War 1898;
o Moroccan War 1907-1912;
o World War I (early).
* These conflicts obviously overlap periods of use for other French bayonet models, such as the 1866, 1886, 1892 and 1914.

the 1886 lebel saw service thru WWII, sometimes in shortened form.

the full kit

and what our ethnographic metalsmith would have seen:

and this, en masse

as a final point, the gras had a brass pommel and wooden scales, the lebel all metal, either white metal or brass.

Tim Simmons · 13th April 2008, 01:45 PM

kronckew. thank you for such vivid illumination, all helps to make a stronger day dream when handling it. On reflection I think you may have a point about the Lebel inspiration, but I do not think it would have been a problem to make a cruciform blade.

More dream stuff. I think the bayonet is from Ivory Coast and there abouts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samory_Tour%C3%A9

Tim Simmons · 15th April 2008, 07:30 AM

kronckew, anybody?

Can you show the cleaning stick on this rifle with a diameter? As I do not think the bayonet would fit. This is just a stabbing weapon based on the bayonet. The holes in the handle are just part of the concept. If you could get the rifle then the bayonets could have been got hold of too?

12th April 2008, 09:02 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Lebel copy allright Kronckew. This rifle was used by the French Foreign Legion, right ? So North Africa makes all sense ... Fernando Attached Images

12th April 2008, 09:37 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	I have been looking in a few books and I think this is the version. I do not see North African work here. French West Africa, perhaps even Dahomey taken from an Amazon when the French took Dahomey in your dreams. The book this picture comes from "Swords & Bayonets" R.J.Wilkinnson.Latham suggests that the quillion was removed 1916. Some people think the auther may be a God. Attached Images

13th April 2008, 10:32 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	It could equally be the Gras bayonet, both the Gras and the Lebel are not a true round spike. The hole in the handle in this view, a deliberate act? looks like an imitation of the stud on the Gras handle. It might just be inspired by a general bayonet form. There are many versions from several countries which have elements that could have been the model Attached Images

13th April 2008, 11:45 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	the french seemed to have a passion for the epee style bayonets, in the gras and the lebel. the gras being more bladelike and the forerunner of the cruciform lebel. they both had the distinctive curved 'blade breaker' lower guard in the 1886 lebel and the last of the french blade-like sword bayonets, the 1874 gras. as the locals were capable of making a bladed copy, and less likely to make a cruciform version, i'd say the lebel is more likely tho it may be a transition type between the two. the gras bayonet was in use worldwide for a long time: * The French wars during the useful "life-span" of this bayonet were: o French Indo-China in 1873-1874 and again in 1882-1883; o Sino-French War 1883-1885; o Madagascar Wars 1883-1885 and 1895; o 1st Mandingo-French War 1883-1886; o 1st Dahomeyan-French War 1889-1990; o 2nd Dahomeyan-French War 1892-1894; o 2nd Mandingo-French War 1894-1895; o Conquest of Chad 1897-1914; o 3rd Mandingo-French War 1898; o Moroccan War 1907-1912; o World War I (early). * These conflicts obviously overlap periods of use for other French bayonet models, such as the 1866, 1886, 1892 and 1914. the 1886 lebel saw service thru WWII, sometimes in shortened form. the full kit and what our ethnographic metalsmith would have seen: and this, en masse as a final point, the gras had a brass pommel and wooden scales, the lebel all metal, either white metal or brass. Last edited by kronckew; 13th April 2008 at 12:12 PM.

13th April 2008, 01:45 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	kronckew. thank you for such vivid illumination, all helps to make a stronger day dream when handling it. On reflection I think you may have a point about the Lebel inspiration, but I do not think it would have been a problem to make a cruciform blade. More dream stuff. I think the bayonet is from Ivory Coast and there abouts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samory_Tour%C3%A9 Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th April 2008 at 01:55 PM.

13th April 2008, 12:32 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	That book is a pretty good resource, as shown in your comparison Tim! Wish I had my copy handy All best regards, Jim

15th April 2008, 07:30 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	kronckew, anybody? Can you show the cleaning stick on this rifle with a diameter? As I do not think the bayonet would fit. This is just a stabbing weapon based on the bayonet. The holes in the handle are just part of the concept. If you could get the rifle then the bayonets could have been got hold of too?