Yataghan/Flyssa

[Emanuel]

Compared to the yataghan flyssa from the auction:

[Emanuel]

Compared to another yataghan with very different construction, not seen on the majority of yataghan. Again, notice the scroll/foliage brasswork. The blade in this case even had the triangular ornaments close to the spine, often seen on flyssa.
Thoughts? I recall Ham had once asserted that this motif is a common Anatolian one. Could we see these three swords as part of a continuous link?

[Jim McDougall]

Emanuel, this is outstanding! genuine ethnographic weapons discussion and it is great that you continue the quest for the elusive history of the flyssa. It seems with many ethnographic weapons there are always opposing cases for convergent evolution, and clearly there are equally opposing cases for the diffusion of influences.

I recall years ago Louis-Pierre Cavaille in France did a lot of study on the flyssa, but cant find my notes on that, and I'm not sure what became of him, he seems to have disappeared from forums some time ago.

Like you, I always wondered what the earliest examples of the flyssa were, and how might they have developed. In the literature, it seems that the earliest recorded example was c.1827 with one presented to a diplomat essentially. I cant recall exact details, but I know you have that data. Like the notorious 'Black Sea yataghan' , the flyssa appears to have been a late arrival in arms. I did find a provenanced example that was taken in combat in 1857 I believe, and is held in the French Foreign Legion Museum in France. It was exactly as the typically seen examples in collections today with basically the same blade shape and motif etc.

While most references I have seen suggest the 16th century form of straight bladed yataghan with deep belly as the likely source of influence for the flyssa, what is curious is why the blade evolved into the straight extremely heavy, needle pointed form seen on these. With the diverse ethnic groups serving in Ottoman forces, I often thought that perhaps early Tatar sabres with these needle type points (known typically as ordynka in Polish references) from Caucasian and Eastern European regions might have provided influence, that may have been noted by warriors of the Kabyles. Naturally the mail piercing concept must be also considered.

These yataghans which do seem to reflect essential elements of the flyssa indeed present a conundrum. It does seem that as cultures are brought together in either conquest or colonization and trade, there is distinct comingling of virtually all elements of the cultures in degree. The cross influence of weaponry is but one of these instances.

During the British Raj in India, British officers in native cavalry regiments adopted colorful interpretations of Indian costume as uniforms. In many cases, the swords they carried were hybridized with regulation hilts on Indian blades, and more often with Indian hilts mounted with British blades. To get into the concepts of adaption and deeper explanations for this would easily exceed this discussion, but it is common in virtually all situations of this kind.
I think of Lawrence of Arabia, and many others.

I am wondering if perhaps Ottoman officers or officials might have had custom yataghans fashioned in the style of regions where they served. Perhaps, Ottoman craftsmen created these specifically for high end individuals in Kabyle regions, or recognizing the Maghreb in the sense of exotic hubris for individuals who had served there etc.

It seems that the triangular motif is commonly regarded as a folk religion motif that pertains to apotropaic devices, in this case the triangle, which is known as the fibula (in essence, the extended hand with splayed fingers termed 'five in your eye'). This concept is much the same as the Arabic folk religion device known as the aghreb (scorpion) and as stylized image placed on swords or mounts as motif.
I recall Ham's comment on the Anatolian provenance of this motif, and wonder if this too transferred to the cultural sphere in the Maghreb.

In any case, all great food for thought!

All very best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hi again, Jim!

I'm very curious about that last yataghan. Oriental-Arms listed it as eastern European. The construction is so odd though. The two big nobs are reminiscent of Caucasian/Persian kindjals and qamas. I have not yet seen this scrolls/foliage motif on Balkan crafts, does anyone know if it is indeed common, or how often it occurs?
Same for Anatolian work. Do scrolls in brass occur in other art forms?
Do they occur on Caucasian art?
Specifically Circassian? (Reference to this thread: Flyssa in St-Petersburg Museum where Ariel showed Circassian and Tatar sabres as a possible inspiration for the flyssa)
If not, can we say this is an indigeneous kabyle motif?

[Emanuel]

Here is a site on Circassian arts. In their crafts and traditional motifs sections there are some pictures that with a stretch could be quite similar to our flyssa decoration: http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/index.php?cat=4

Here is some of their foliage work

[CharlesS]

If only the Hermann's example had a scabbard, it would speak volumes, and, I think, answer many questions...but alas...no scabbard.

As is, I see it as only an Ottoman influence on a traditional flyssa.

[Battara]

I agree with the "Chuckmeister". Besides, Tirri was wrong about a number of things in the book, so I would take his "observations" with a grain of salt.