Easter Island vandalization-Aarrr!

katana · 10th April 2008, 02:02 PM

I can see this debate becoming 'political', countries accusing others of stealing their heritage and 'national treasures'. I feel that we should view the bigger picture.....the victorious always took the 'spoils' from the vanquished. This pattern has occured for millenia, it is in man's natural behaviour ...

In modern times 'money' is the new weapon of acquition .... in poorer countries, rich in history ....grave robbers etc. still exist whom are prepared to sell antiquities to unscruplious dealers ....to feed their famillies. They , of course, receive minimal payment......its these dealers who's mark-ups can easily be 1000 - 2000%....whom are the real villians.

spiral · 10th April 2008, 03:29 PM

yes it was always "to the victors the spoils. " Thats war even when the Greeks conquered half the known world & took whatever they desired.

Thats also why England & USA are full of Japanese swords, my local museam apparently even has George Washington’s Bible, captured by the 46th Foot in 1777.

Spiral

dennee · 10th April 2008, 03:55 PM

Defacing such a significant cultural resource is a disgrace and a crime.

As for what is actually taboo, it depends who you ask. The reason that some Tibetan artifacts are made of bone (skull cups and drums, bone aprons and femur trumpets, etc.) is because they represent the impermanence of all things and suggest that people should not be attached to objects or concepts. An interesting perspective for all collectors to consider! Of course, in practice, I think Tibetans have been somewhat ambivalent about such items; do they not matter, or should they be guarded as important religious objects?

josh stout · 10th April 2008, 04:03 PM

Politics aside, I feel the dividing line is between removing something from an archeological site or existing ritual site in a context where the presence of the item adds information, and buying something that has been circulating in the market place. Even buying an antique from a village market from someone who had it in the family for a few generations is not the same as stealing it from a temple. If a villager sells a family heirloom, they lose some personal history, but information about the artifact and its provenance now has the chance to reach the larger world and make us all culturally richer for it.

Proper archeology concerns museums and national governments and should not involve collectors too much. Artifacts clearly excavated but with no provenance, are in a bit of a moral grey zone. No new information would be lost, but feeding demand could potentially lead to more looting.

Where I strongly disagree with those who question ethnographic collecting is with nationalists who think that, for example, Japanese swords or Chinese swords in private ownership should all be owned by members of the same ethnicity as their provenance. The ethnicity of private owners has no bearing on the appreciation of beauty or the knowledge an antique sword can bring. Moreover forbidding the spread of cultural information and the artifacts that go with it leads to xenophobic isolation instead of appreciation for new forms and aesthetics developed outside a European context.

What I would like to see is more museums working with the international collecting community. That way when Hong Kong collectors snap up all the really good Chinese pieces, I still would have a chance of seeing them at the Met someday.
Josh

VANDOO · 10th April 2008, 07:00 PM

I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE HAS BOUGHT A MOA I WAS USING THAT AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT A RICH COLLECTOR WOULD DO

. I SUSPECT SOME MUSEUM OR RICH PERSON HAS TAKEN ONE IN THE PAST AND PERHAPS IT WAS DONATED TO SOME MUSEUM SOMEWHERE WHEN THE COLLECTOR DIED OR GOT OLDER AND DECIDED TO PART WITH IT.

OFTEN COMMON OBJECTS FOUND IN POOR AREAS HAVE NO VALUE AND ARE TREATED AS TRASH, THEY ONLY BECOME VALUABLE WHEN THERE IS A MARKET FOR THEM. FARMERS IN MID AND SOUTH AMERICA USED TO FIND LOTS OF ARTEFACTS IN THEIR FIELDS WHICH WERE REMOVED AND THROWN IN A DITCH OR USED FOR LANDFILL TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIELD. ONE AREA IN CHINA HAD LOTS OF CHUNKS OF METEORITES IN THE FIELDS WHICH WERE REMOVED PILED UP AND USED FOR FENCES AND LANDFILL. FOR GENERATIONS THESE THINGS WERE WASTED OR DESTROYED UNTILL SOMEONE CAME ALONG AND OFFERED MONEY FOR THEM. THEN THEY WERE SOUGHT OUT AND TAKEN CARE OF SO THEY WOULD BRING THE BEST PRICE.
IN SOME AREAS THIS IS STILL TRUE A FRIEND OF MINE HIKING AROUND SOUTH AMERICA FOUND A LADY USING A OLD BOWL SHE HAD DUG UP IN THE GARDEN AS A WATER BOWL FOR HER DOG. IT HAD JAGUAR HEADS AND PAINTING STILL ON IT BUT WAS A BIT WORSE FOR THE WEAR OF BEING A DOGS BOWL.

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE STILL LIVE IN THE OLD WAY AND MUST SPEND ALL THEIR TIME SURVIVING AND TAKING CARE OF THEIR FAMILYS. THE CROPS MUST BE PLANTED, HARVESTED AND STORED THE HOUSE AND ANIMALS MUST BE TAKEN CARE OF WHEN THE CHILDREN GROW UP A SUITABLE MATE MUST BE FOUND AND THE NEW FAMILY HELPED TO GET LAND AND HOUSE.
WE ALL HAVE TIME ON OUR HANDS AND DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A BAD CROP, SOMETHING HAPPENING TO THE LIVESTOCK OR HOUSE WHICH COULD LEAD TO THE STARVATION OF THE FAMILY. PEOPLE LIVING LIKE THAT DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO COLLECT OR PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO THINGS THAT DON'T HELP THEM EARN A LIVEING. WE ARE LUCKY AS WE HAVE THE TIME TO GOOF OFF , COLLECT, STUDY AND TYPE ON THE COMPUTER.

M ELEY · 10th April 2008, 10:28 PM

I've read everyone's comments and, surprisingly, I agree with everyone despite different viewpoints. I guess in an ideal world, if discoveries in the modern era are found, those artifacts will hopefully be SHARED by both the finder and the host country (no more hauling away the pharoah's loot as in the past). I do think the finder should get a share of the find, however (think Mel Fisher and also this most recent treasure find that's causing so many bad feelings). The whole spoils of war and highest bidder think still turm my stomach, but that's part of life. I think the main emphasis in my orininal thread (sorry! Side-tracked

), was the destruction of the moa, or the Sphinx or the Acropolis, should have enormous penalties to dissuade it. If it's war, it should be a war crime. It's just like our namby-pamby laws with DUI. Overseas, the penalties are much harsher. Being a health-care provider, I can tell you the results of such activities. Same should go with the destruction of artifacts. I'm reminded of the American Art Deco period (1920's-30's) where many antiques were destroyed and made into 'objects de art'. I have seen Ming Dynasty bronze temple urns sawed in half and turned into lamps, swords cut down into candle sticks and in one of Fagan's catalogs, a 3 tiered lamp with welded Kula Khed helmets for shades. What a shame...

Rick · 11th April 2008, 02:15 AM

As I understand it the Village Elder where this crime ocurred was demanding the culprit's ear as compensation .

Too bad he did not get his way .

katana · 11th April 2008, 03:42 PM

I appreciate that the thread started with the story of an idiotic vandal ... but with various comments about ownership of cultural heritage etc I thought this may be relavent.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7334229.stm

This is the same story reported in Canada, but this has responses from readers....

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/artdesign/sto...kh-armour.html

fernando · 11th April 2008, 05:33 PM

This type of ( forcingly political ) issues is allways amazing ... to give them a sporty name

Allways all parties trying to "bleech" the whatever raised examples to make their interests more benignous that those of the others, expelling any possible remorse from their own scene

.
It's a bit like discussing the sex of virgins, as we say over here

.
Eveybody sacks everything from everybody, as everybody sells everything to everybody; it's all a matter of context.
This is a dog world, that has allways been ruled by the law of the strongest.
As for collectors being the nice guys in the story, it depends on what they collect; there are even collectors of nations

10th April 2008, 02:02 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I can see this debate becoming 'political', countries accusing others of stealing their heritage and 'national treasures'. I feel that we should view the bigger picture.....the victorious always took the 'spoils' from the vanquished. This pattern has occured for millenia, it is in man's natural behaviour ... In modern times 'money' is the new weapon of acquition .... in poorer countries, rich in history ....grave robbers etc. still exist whom are prepared to sell antiquities to unscruplious dealers ....to feed their famillies. They , of course, receive minimal payment......its these dealers who's mark-ups can easily be 1000 - 2000%....whom are the real villians.

10th April 2008, 03:29 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	yes it was always "to the victors the spoils. " Thats war even when the Greeks conquered half the known world & took whatever they desired. Thats also why England & USA are full of Japanese swords, my local museam apparently even has George Washington’s Bible, captured by the 46th Foot in 1777. Spiral

10th April 2008, 03:55 PM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Defacing such a significant cultural resource is a disgrace and a crime. As for what is actually taboo, it depends who you ask. The reason that some Tibetan artifacts are made of bone (skull cups and drums, bone aprons and femur trumpets, etc.) is because they represent the impermanence of all things and suggest that people should not be attached to objects or concepts. An interesting perspective for all collectors to consider! Of course, in practice, I think Tibetans have been somewhat ambivalent about such items; do they not matter, or should they be guarded as important religious objects?

10th April 2008, 04:03 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Politics aside, I feel the dividing line is between removing something from an archeological site or existing ritual site in a context where the presence of the item adds information, and buying something that has been circulating in the market place. Even buying an antique from a village market from someone who had it in the family for a few generations is not the same as stealing it from a temple. If a villager sells a family heirloom, they lose some personal history, but information about the artifact and its provenance now has the chance to reach the larger world and make us all culturally richer for it. Proper archeology concerns museums and national governments and should not involve collectors too much. Artifacts clearly excavated but with no provenance, are in a bit of a moral grey zone. No new information would be lost, but feeding demand could potentially lead to more looting. Where I strongly disagree with those who question ethnographic collecting is with nationalists who think that, for example, Japanese swords or Chinese swords in private ownership should all be owned by members of the same ethnicity as their provenance. The ethnicity of private owners has no bearing on the appreciation of beauty or the knowledge an antique sword can bring. Moreover forbidding the spread of cultural information and the artifacts that go with it leads to xenophobic isolation instead of appreciation for new forms and aesthetics developed outside a European context. What I would like to see is more museums working with the international collecting community. That way when Hong Kong collectors snap up all the really good Chinese pieces, I still would have a chance of seeing them at the Met someday. Josh

10th April 2008, 07:00 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE HAS BOUGHT A MOA I WAS USING THAT AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT A RICH COLLECTOR WOULD DO . I SUSPECT SOME MUSEUM OR RICH PERSON HAS TAKEN ONE IN THE PAST AND PERHAPS IT WAS DONATED TO SOME MUSEUM SOMEWHERE WHEN THE COLLECTOR DIED OR GOT OLDER AND DECIDED TO PART WITH IT. OFTEN COMMON OBJECTS FOUND IN POOR AREAS HAVE NO VALUE AND ARE TREATED AS TRASH, THEY ONLY BECOME VALUABLE WHEN THERE IS A MARKET FOR THEM. FARMERS IN MID AND SOUTH AMERICA USED TO FIND LOTS OF ARTEFACTS IN THEIR FIELDS WHICH WERE REMOVED AND THROWN IN A DITCH OR USED FOR LANDFILL TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIELD. ONE AREA IN CHINA HAD LOTS OF CHUNKS OF METEORITES IN THE FIELDS WHICH WERE REMOVED PILED UP AND USED FOR FENCES AND LANDFILL. FOR GENERATIONS THESE THINGS WERE WASTED OR DESTROYED UNTILL SOMEONE CAME ALONG AND OFFERED MONEY FOR THEM. THEN THEY WERE SOUGHT OUT AND TAKEN CARE OF SO THEY WOULD BRING THE BEST PRICE. IN SOME AREAS THIS IS STILL TRUE A FRIEND OF MINE HIKING AROUND SOUTH AMERICA FOUND A LADY USING A OLD BOWL SHE HAD DUG UP IN THE GARDEN AS A WATER BOWL FOR HER DOG. IT HAD JAGUAR HEADS AND PAINTING STILL ON IT BUT WAS A BIT WORSE FOR THE WEAR OF BEING A DOGS BOWL. IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE STILL LIVE IN THE OLD WAY AND MUST SPEND ALL THEIR TIME SURVIVING AND TAKING CARE OF THEIR FAMILYS. THE CROPS MUST BE PLANTED, HARVESTED AND STORED THE HOUSE AND ANIMALS MUST BE TAKEN CARE OF WHEN THE CHILDREN GROW UP A SUITABLE MATE MUST BE FOUND AND THE NEW FAMILY HELPED TO GET LAND AND HOUSE. WE ALL HAVE TIME ON OUR HANDS AND DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A BAD CROP, SOMETHING HAPPENING TO THE LIVESTOCK OR HOUSE WHICH COULD LEAD TO THE STARVATION OF THE FAMILY. PEOPLE LIVING LIKE THAT DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO COLLECT OR PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO THINGS THAT DON'T HELP THEM EARN A LIVEING. WE ARE LUCKY AS WE HAVE THE TIME TO GOOF OFF , COLLECT, STUDY AND TYPE ON THE COMPUTER.

10th April 2008, 10:28 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	I've read everyone's comments and, surprisingly, I agree with everyone despite different viewpoints. I guess in an ideal world, if discoveries in the modern era are found, those artifacts will hopefully be SHARED by both the finder and the host country (no more hauling away the pharoah's loot as in the past). I do think the finder should get a share of the find, however (think Mel Fisher and also this most recent treasure find that's causing so many bad feelings). The whole spoils of war and highest bidder think still turm my stomach, but that's part of life. I think the main emphasis in my orininal thread (sorry! Side-tracked ), was the destruction of the moa, or the Sphinx or the Acropolis, should have enormous penalties to dissuade it. If it's war, it should be a war crime. It's just like our namby-pamby laws with DUI. Overseas, the penalties are much harsher. Being a health-care provider, I can tell you the results of such activities. Same should go with the destruction of artifacts. I'm reminded of the American Art Deco period (1920's-30's) where many antiques were destroyed and made into 'objects de art'. I have seen Ming Dynasty bronze temple urns sawed in half and turned into lamps, swords cut down into candle sticks and in one of Fagan's catalogs, a 3 tiered lamp with welded Kula Khed helmets for shades. What a shame...

11th April 2008, 02:15 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,348	As I understand it the Village Elder where this crime ocurred was demanding the culprit's ear as compensation . Too bad he did not get his way .

11th April 2008, 03:42 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I appreciate that the thread started with the story of an idiotic vandal ... but with various comments about ownership of cultural heritage etc I thought this may be relavent..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7334229.stm This is the same story reported in Canada, but this has responses from readers.... http://www.cbc.ca/arts/artdesign/sto...kh-armour.html

11th April 2008, 05:33 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This type of ( forcingly political ) issues is allways amazing ... to give them a sporty name Allways all parties trying to "bleech" the whatever raised examples to make their interests more benignous that those of the others, expelling any possible remorse from their own scene . It's a bit like discussing the sex of virgins, as we say over here . Eveybody sacks everything from everybody, as everybody sells everything to everybody; it's all a matter of context. This is a dog world, that has allways been ruled by the law of the strongest. As for collectors being the nice guys in the story, it depends on what they collect; there are even collectors of nations