Please help on bronze axes

[fernando]

According to what can be read, axes unfinished from casting were a current situation. This makes it logic that often large quantities of axes are found in the same spot. It appears that they were used as a demonstration of power, to mark the limits of a determined area, as also for ceremonial situations ... plus the ones used in "grave goods", as David quoted.
... Some connection with the later custom of making ( inoperational )weapons in Africa and elsewhere, to be used as currency ?

[Marc]

Nice pieces, Fernando. My congratulations. Do you have any clue about their provenence (place of excavation, etc.)? This could be extremely useful when trying to determine their authenticity. Even if something in the lines of "allegedly taken form somewhere around there".

[fernando]

Thank you very much for your words, Marc.
No, not a clue on their origin. As i said, they were auctioned together with a series of padlocks, in an indistinct manner. I have just detected a picture of such lot in the auctioner web site, as i have memorized their name since the local seller showed it to me. I would say these examples are Portuguese; i can see similar ones in Portuguese archeologic sites, excavated in various places in the (northern ?) Country. But that is just a hint ... i know nothing of these things and didn't yet read any literature appointing for their typology being necessarily Portuguese ... or Iberian, as often things are referred over here. Also the auctioner being placed in Porto and not in Lisbon could indicate the stuff auctioned is more of the internal type and not brought in by traders or travellers.
But no doubt i will try hard to find out.
I must regconize however that, if eventually these pieces are genuine, the attitude of mixing them with a bunch of padlocks and the price pretended for the lot licitation ( 50 euros ), denotes a complete ignorance and disdain from the auctioner side
Fernando

[katana]

Hi Fernando,
I am no expert, but, looking at the 'grinding' marks, I think that these do not seem to be made by a file.

1. File teeth are triangular and equally spaced... ^^^^^^^......the grooves on your picture appear to be 'rounded' and not regulary spaced... n nn n n

2 The grooves seem to follow most of the contours of the surface, a file would only remove 'high spots' and the file teeth would not be in contact with the 'low spots' as the file is, in 'essence', flat.

Perhaps these 'marks' are caused by working the axehead on a 'grainy', soft(sedimentary type) rock

It is difficult to be precise with photographs, lighting etc can cause 'mis-leading images. Of cause, even if I am right, this would not guarantee 'authenticity' ... a 'good faker' could imitate this effect. Equally, though, you could say that it would add 'weight' to their authenticity

Perhaps the curator of the museum (you mentioned) could point you in the direction of someone whom could authenticate them properly for you.

If they do turn out to be genuine........

All the best

David

[fernando]

Thanks a lot for your impressions, David.
I am actually thinking of visiting the museum, which is actually not far from here; i just hope to find someone there specializing in this specific sort of things. The museum has diverse kinds of archeologic stuff, specially on the stone area, with a large "collection" of primitive swasticas.
Also at this very moment and as adviced, i am posting the pieces in SFI, on the Ancient Weapons section, where the moderator is an expert on Bronze Age casting.
Let's see what comes up.
Thanks for your (allways) enthusiastic support
Fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting thread. It does seem odd that Fernando should come by these as he did, if they are indeed actually ancient though not impossible. They do not have to be fakes, they may just be replicas bought from a museum shop? The marks David mentions do look like file marks, files do way back in history but we are talking about the Bronze age. There is no reason bronze prestige items did not continue to have relevance in the early iron age? What does look just a little unconvincing are the marks in this picture. Clearly made by a steel tool of some kind and in rather a modern machine precision format?

[Tim Simmons]

Look here. Fig5 on page 6. X-ray of an iron age file.
http://www.helm.org.uk/upload/pdf/X_Radiography.pdf
Very interesting? Even if these can be found in groups it is where they are found that is important, not saying the axe its self is not important. It would be super if Fernando's axes were ancient. Probably best to go to a museum.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

...What does look just a little unconvincing are the marks in this picture. Clearly made by a steel tool of some kind and in rather a modern machine precision format?

Very pertinent remark, Tim.
... At least untill someone comes up with a logic explanation for that, like the marks having been made at a later (recent) stage, for some kind of reason, like using the thing as a hammer, or whatever.
Fernando

[katana]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

There is no reason bronze prestige items did not continue to have relevance in the early iron age?

Hi Tim,
a while ago ...a documentary on the bronze age, demonstrated a late bronze age sword ( a replica made using the technology of the time, so in a sense... authentic) against an early iron age sword ( again made using early iron age tech.) During the 'sword fight' there was constant comparison to check the damage done to each sword. Both had cuts to the swords edges, the worst was suffered by the iron sword, eventually the iron sword broke Because the technology of hardening steel was unknown and the smelting process was not refined, the iron blade was relatively soft in some areas/ harder (brittle) in others ,as the quality of smelted iron was not consistant. The bronze sword was actually superior, I was amazed at how well the bronze sword performed.

Obviously as the iron age developed, increasing knowledge gradually improved the quality of the the iron, and later the addition of carbon and heat treatment made steel ....the king of blades.

Found this fine Iron Age sword made of bronze..

http://www.shropshire.gov.uk/museums...256C7800361C8A


Regards David

[fernando]

When reading the following posting, one would be convinced that these two axes are indeed genuine. However three hours later, i have got strong indications on the contrary.
Now i am like the fool on the bridge


" From the looks of it, these are the real thing. But they're not just any axes (which by themselves would already be very significant finds), these are unfinished axes, which are extremely rare! I can count the number of unfinished axes I know from Europe on one hand (out of thousands). They are even rarer then moulds, and can tell a lot about the fabrication process. Unfortunately though, without any confirmed provenance these are worthless to archeology. There's a good chance that these belonged to a founders hoard, that's been split up and sold seperately. And they probably were part of a sacrificial deposition, which would tell a lot about the religious significance of the area in which they were found, if it would be known where they were found. So if you can trace back the original finder, and the original find spot, you'd be able to rescue a very significant find, of which the historical significance is otherwise lost. I'd also highly recommend reporting these to the archeologists from the area where these originate, so that they can help tracing back the origins, and record these axes.

Jeroen Zuiderwijk
SFI Ancient Weapons Forum "

i have met the nearby museum superior and here comes the questionable part, concerning my two examples. Although she admits not being specialized in metalurgy, but in restoring, she advances that, regularly such cones, containing the pouring left overs, are composed of a much poorer metal, whereas in my example the material in the cone looks as having the same consistency.
Together with the fact that my two examples are much too nice and too well preserved, besides some local miscoloration and other small details, she is inclined to assume that they might not be genuine. She further said that, other than that, only metal tests would contrary such conviction, but they are far too expensive and out of question. Therefore the necessity to find out where the axes were found, for museologic reasons, did not take place.

I am beginning to think that these are the ideal items to offer for swaping
Fernando