Talismanic symbols?

Battara · 4th April 2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much

I remember this one. Actually it is both. Through use of okir (stylized vegitation motifs) this is a stylized naga - snake - with a tongue. It is to empower the owner and make the piece more deadly.

Flavio · 4th April 2008, 06:09 PM

Thank you Jose

This symbols are on a dha... some kind of SSSS...

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2008, 06:14 PM

Battara, this is interesting, do you remember where you saw this?
If, possible at all, these decorations can mean different things, and time is running out fast, if we want to know what they meant - if it is not too late already. There still are palm leaves, not yet translated, which may cast light on this - but when will they be translated, and if they do, will we know about it?
Btw The Tree of Life is sometimes also called the Kundalini Flame, and both have to do with Yoga.

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 02:57 AM

I find this interesting too Jose. I can only see what looks like a plant in a vase, describing the kundalini or tree of life as Jens has described, however I know that the Moro keris focuses primarily on nagan symbolism. I was amazed to discover that while the serpentine blades represents the naga in motion...the straight blade also represents it...at rest.

Decorative motif, symbols, markings and stylized elements are very confusing in weapons and it truly is hard to determine where symbolism ends and pure motif begins. It seems that certain devices or stylized symbols, such as the squiggle 'S' on the dha, are often placed in repitition as motif that will imbue auspicious meaning in the weapon. Often we have seen ultra simple symbolism such as the three dots applied often only at key locations on a blade, sometimes at a fuller, sometimes separating certain features or other markings on the blade.
The talismanic properties with this application seem very much like those found often on European blades, with certain religious and occult symbols applied near blade elements, inscriptions and marks seemingly to accent or emphasize the potency intended in them.

All very complex, but this is what makes the weapons so incredibly fascinating!

Best regards,
Jim

Battara · 5th April 2008, 08:47 PM

Yes Jim you are correct. Cato in Moro Swords mentions that the naga is a common motif used in especially kris. In fact the blade is the naga. The tree of life motif does not occur deliberately in Moro art. In Maranao Art you do not see this motif, but snakes (nagas) and other animals like crocodiles and birds are used, but only done using okir so that the image is not clear and traditionally conform to the edict in Islam not to make graven images. In the Philippines, Indonesia, and other parts of SE Asia the naga is a power symbol that is used. That is the purpose of a talisman - to empower the user/owner, and in the Philippines the naga and crocodile are such symbols and used on weaponry and cloth all over the southern Philippines (also see Textiles of the Southern Philippines). In the north on Luzon the imagery changes with the frog and lizard being talismans along with the naga (again a power symbol). I would have too look at my library to get the exact pages and other texts I am basing this on.

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 11:38 PM

Hi Jose,
Thank you so much for responding to my comments. These weapons are outside my regular fields of study, so I appreciate your explanation and detail on the symbolism and motif. The concepts seem very similar to those on the talismanic blades of Europe, at least in degree. I know your knowledge on these weapons is extensive, and while references are always nice for the general reading on the thread, they are not necessary for me to know your comments are right on target.

All very best regards,
Jim

Battara · 6th April 2008, 08:47 PM

Jim you have a good point (like the one on my head

) and that is that talismans and talismanic marks are architypal (to use a Jungian term) and therefore many cultures across the planet use or have used them in some form or fashion. Often they are used to ward off not just misfortune or empower the ower, but for some (Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines) the image, even symbolic, is enough to scare off (hopefully) evil spirits, etc. Another good example is in Bali the use of demon hilt figures to scare off other demons.

Gavin Nugent · 7th April 2008, 06:28 AM

I just received a 1st copy of Eduard Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons. What a huge volume, I didn't think I'd get it home on the tank of the bike. Whilst I am sitting here looking through it, I came across a chapter on this very subject. I don't think I will be able to manipulate my scanner to fit these pages but for those who have a copy on the shelf pages 67-77 are very interesting.

regards

Gav

Royston · 17th April 2008, 11:54 AM

This thread got me thinking about a Parang Nabur which has been hiding in a chest of drawers for the last 20 years ( Who has a house large enough to display everything ? ). I have just dug it out and photographed the symbols. Anyone seen these before ?

VVV · 17th April 2008, 04:19 PM

These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo.
Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same.
This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal.
The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc...
There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo.
Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same.
This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal.
The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc...
There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".

Nicely worded and concise comments on this Teodor. While I had known of the buduh, its concept was a bit unclear. Thank you for the info.
All the best,
Jim

Royston · 18th April 2008, 12:31 PM

Thanks for the information VVV. I now have some more reaserch to do.
Royston

4th April 2008, 06:09 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Jose This symbols are on a dha... some kind of SSSS... Attached Images

7th April 2008, 06:28 AM	#8
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Wagner I just received a 1st copy of Eduard Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons. What a huge volume, I didn't think I'd get it home on the tank of the bike. Whilst I am sitting here looking through it, I came across a chapter on this very subject. I don't think I will be able to manipulate my scanner to fit these pages but for those who have a copy on the shelf pages 67-77 are very interesting. regards Gav

17th April 2008, 11:54 AM	#9
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	SYMBOLS ON A PARANG NABUR This thread got me thinking about a Parang Nabur which has been hiding in a chest of drawers for the last 20 years ( Who has a house large enough to display everything ? ). I have just dug it out and photographed the symbols. Anyone seen these before ? Attached Images

18th April 2008, 12:31 PM	#12
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Symbols Thanks for the information VVV. I now have some more reaserch to do. Royston

4th April 2008, 06:14 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Battara, this is interesting, do you remember where you saw this? If, possible at all, these decorations can mean different things, and time is running out fast, if we want to know what they meant - if it is not too late already. There still are palm leaves, not yet translated, which may cast light on this - but when will they be translated, and if they do, will we know about it? Btw The Tree of Life is sometimes also called the Kundalini Flame, and both have to do with Yoga.

5th April 2008, 02:57 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I find this interesting too Jose. I can only see what looks like a plant in a vase, describing the kundalini or tree of life as Jens has described, however I know that the Moro keris focuses primarily on nagan symbolism. I was amazed to discover that while the serpentine blades represents the naga in motion...the straight blade also represents it...at rest. Decorative motif, symbols, markings and stylized elements are very confusing in weapons and it truly is hard to determine where symbolism ends and pure motif begins. It seems that certain devices or stylized symbols, such as the squiggle 'S' on the dha, are often placed in repitition as motif that will imbue auspicious meaning in the weapon. Often we have seen ultra simple symbolism such as the three dots applied often only at key locations on a blade, sometimes at a fuller, sometimes separating certain features or other markings on the blade. The talismanic properties with this application seem very much like those found often on European blades, with certain religious and occult symbols applied near blade elements, inscriptions and marks seemingly to accent or emphasize the potency intended in them. All very complex, but this is what makes the weapons so incredibly fascinating! Best regards, Jim

5th April 2008, 08:47 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Yes Jim you are correct. Cato in Moro Swords mentions that the naga is a common motif used in especially kris. In fact the blade is the naga. The tree of life motif does not occur deliberately in Moro art. In Maranao Art you do not see this motif, but snakes (nagas) and other animals like crocodiles and birds are used, but only done using okir so that the image is not clear and traditionally conform to the edict in Islam not to make graven images. In the Philippines, Indonesia, and other parts of SE Asia the naga is a power symbol that is used. That is the purpose of a talisman - to empower the user/owner, and in the Philippines the naga and crocodile are such symbols and used on weaponry and cloth all over the southern Philippines (also see Textiles of the Southern Philippines). In the north on Luzon the imagery changes with the frog and lizard being talismans along with the naga (again a power symbol). I would have too look at my library to get the exact pages and other texts I am basing this on.

5th April 2008, 11:38 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Jose, Thank you so much for responding to my comments. These weapons are outside my regular fields of study, so I appreciate your explanation and detail on the symbolism and motif. The concepts seem very similar to those on the talismanic blades of Europe, at least in degree. I know your knowledge on these weapons is extensive, and while references are always nice for the general reading on the thread, they are not necessary for me to know your comments are right on target. All very best regards, Jim

6th April 2008, 08:47 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Jim you have a good point (like the one on my head ) and that is that talismans and talismanic marks are architypal (to use a Jungian term) and therefore many cultures across the planet use or have used them in some form or fashion. Often they are used to ward off not just misfortune or empower the ower, but for some (Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines) the image, even symbolic, is enough to scare off (hopefully) evil spirits, etc. Another good example is in Bali the use of demon hilt figures to scare off other demons.

17th April 2008, 04:19 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo. Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same. This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal. The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc... There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".