Ebay UK ban sale of "samarai swords"

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you Kate. Very helpful the plain facts. As far as I can read a collector falls into no5. If you are to wave a sword around outside of an antique market or militaria fair, it might be difficult to use paragraph 5 as defence. Perhaps things are not so bad. The shock of the new law will of course be missread and turn many people off from having anything to do with swords. I still feel the prices will go up.

[spiral]

Tim, Read it again,

5. For the purposes of paragraph 4—

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;

“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;

“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;

“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);

“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.
.................................................. ...................


If you see anything there that allows collecting, please point it out to me...

There isnt.... Unless your martial arts, reanacment or theatrical.... as i already pointed out.

But perhaps I missed something? How do you read it? Whats the missreading?


Guess you wernt one of the pistol shooters years ago... Ive been thrugh a varient of this all before.

Wishfull thinking doesnt work with politicians or Mr.Plod.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Call me a barrack room lawyer. The first paragraph of section 5, antique collecting, illustrates the conduct of the past. People will freak out but the dealers know this.

[asomotif]

I dread to think what this means for my collection of 19th/20th century cavalry swords!!

Cavalry sword collections get limited to the 1908 pattern troopers sword

But seriously

I really simpatise with our british collectors.
This stupid law reminds me of the dutch campaign against arms in 1990.
Many klewangs / keris and other ''weapons'' where delivered to police stations by retired militairy men and concerned housewifes.
Luckely they made a very wide excemption for weapons that are clearly part of a collection. If you hang a single (straight or bended) sword on your wall it is considered a collection. (don't take it out in the yard to practice some kill Bill techniques, that will probably make it illegal again.)
Hopefully the Lords will come to their senses and make some changes to this law in order to make this law workable both for the collector and for the police and customs that will have to enforce it.

The people making these laws should really take a closer look on reality.
The way they are thinking now the logical path will lead to banning all knives and the introduction of chopsticks...

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Call me a barrack room lawyer. The first paragraph of section 5, antique collecting, illustrates the conduct of the past. People will freak out but the dealers know this.

Its an argument worth arguing Tim I agree. Personaly I think it covers Reenactors & registered museams. But I hope I am wrong. {sadley doubt it though having read reams od commons & lords papers on it over the last year.

Personly I think the big dealers will do ok & the small collectors & dealers will not.

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hopefully the Lords will come to their senses and make some changes to this law in order to make this law workable both for the collector and for the police and customs that will have to enforce it.

The people making these laws should really take a closer look on reality.
The way they are thinking now the logical path will lead to banning all knives and the introduction of chopsticks...

Sadley Its a law to pretend they are doing something about crime, to appease the over 50s who vote & the newspapers who the over 50s read rather than anything to do with realitys of life.

Spiral

[kronckew]

para 5a only applies if you meet the burden of proof requirement which includes having the required public liability insurance and meeting the documentation requirements to prove you are a member of one of the approved exemption groups. ie you must be a paid up and participating card carrying martial artist or reenactor or actor participating in a govt. approved and insured display or play as part of a govt. approved organization.

these arguments may eventually get you out of your cell, but when the cop pinches your shoulder and says "oi - mate whats that in yer bag?", it's going in their nice damp lockup to rust away while you go in their nice damp lockup to rust away until maybe you get your lawyer to spring you (and with a lot of luck, your sword). start spouting the law to the police and they'll just say 'save it for the judge, we don't make the law, we just enforce it'. hope y'all can afford the expense to prove you meet the exception rules. the lawyers (inc. those politicians who are mostly lawyers), will be laughing all the way to the bank.

do you want to be the one setting any future precedents?

[Tim Simmons]

Good morning.

Only being bit of a dabbler when it comes to collecting I do not know much about dealing. I would have thought that the organisers and owners of hired venues which hold militaria and antique events, will have the paperwork in place to satisfy all this.

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;
“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;
“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;
“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);
“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.

[spiral]

Well the offensive & banned weapons law has been around a long time.

Post 1908 swords with curved blades of 50cm or more will be illegal as flicknives, butterfly knives, knuckle knives etc. {straight blades Oct. 2008.}

They will be listed in that same law section.

As Krockew says Trying to tell policmen , "its ok i collect them" is not realy going to work at the time.

One doesnt notice generaly notice massive trade in them even as antiques in the UK or see them shown at many fairs etc.

Sadley with Ethnographic pieces its hard to prove whether they are pre. or post 1908, & with this law the burden of proof of defense is with the sword owner.

Spiral

[katana]

I think generally, we are all agreed that this 'new' law seems to be 'politically' motivated.....to show the population that measures are being taken for their 'safety'. The law amendment seems very vague and ill conceived, there seems to be little input from independent experts or associations etc. that collect or use swords in their pastime or sport.

The strange thing for me ..is the increase in 'gun' related crime which is not being addressed with such 'force'

I personally feel, that this situation has been greatly 'aided' by the import of the cheap 'Samurai' swords from China. These 'flooded' the market and were readily 'available' on eBay.... with claims that the blades were 'surgical steel' ..'functional' ..'battle ready' ...etc
With the popularity of 'martial art' films recently, showing 'katana's in action' impressionable teenagers were buying these in great numbers.
Unfortunately 'impressionable' politicians seemed to have believed the 'hype' ......these cheap 'knock-offs' are 'sword' like ...in reality they are cheap and useless... the blades often snap off the poorly welded tang and 'fly off' potentially hitting anyone in the general vicinity.....so you could argue that they are dangerous

Unfortunately, the concerns of knife crime, cheap Chinese wall hangers, eBay and the recent film hype of the 'Japanese' sword have all combined in recent times........ I feel we are victims of circumstance .