Talismanic symbols?

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd April 2008, 03:49 PM

Hi Michael,

It is an interesting thread, and I hope others will join in. Stephan Markel, at Los Angeles County Museum of Art, published an article in Jewellery Studies, vol. 10, 2004, where he writes ‘ The motif, shown in the centre and neck of the Taipei pot [shown in the article], is a round, broad leafed plant form with generally five, but sometimes three, four, or six petals terminating in a jagged edge. It is clearly different in botanical structure from the poppy flower portrayed frequently in Mughal art’.

The interesting thing is that when it comes to floral decoration, it seems as if the artist had a lot of artistic freedom, but the same, surely would not count for religious or talismanic decorations. The attached shows what I believe to be the Mughal inspired poppies, looking quite different from the poppies he describes on the Taipei pot.

Flavio · 4th April 2008, 10:54 AM

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2008, 01:07 PM

Flavio,
To me it looks more like the attached. Some call it a cypress, and others The Tree of Life.

Flavio · 4th April 2008, 01:58 PM

Hi Jens!

What I found difficult is to understand which symbols are only decorations and which are talismanic symbols....

Thank you

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2008, 02:30 PM

Hi Flavio,
Confused - that is nothing compared to what I am

.
The way I see it, there are three different kinds, decoration, symbolic and talismanic, and don't mix the last two, as they may not have anything to do with each other.

Battara · 4th April 2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much

I remember this one. Actually it is both. Through use of okir (stylized vegitation motifs) this is a stylized naga - snake - with a tongue. It is to empower the owner and make the piece more deadly.

Flavio · 4th April 2008, 06:09 PM

Thank you Jose

This symbols are on a dha... some kind of SSSS...

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2008, 06:14 PM

Battara, this is interesting, do you remember where you saw this?
If, possible at all, these decorations can mean different things, and time is running out fast, if we want to know what they meant - if it is not too late already. There still are palm leaves, not yet translated, which may cast light on this - but when will they be translated, and if they do, will we know about it?
Btw The Tree of Life is sometimes also called the Kundalini Flame, and both have to do with Yoga.

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 02:57 AM

I find this interesting too Jose. I can only see what looks like a plant in a vase, describing the kundalini or tree of life as Jens has described, however I know that the Moro keris focuses primarily on nagan symbolism. I was amazed to discover that while the serpentine blades represents the naga in motion...the straight blade also represents it...at rest.

Decorative motif, symbols, markings and stylized elements are very confusing in weapons and it truly is hard to determine where symbolism ends and pure motif begins. It seems that certain devices or stylized symbols, such as the squiggle 'S' on the dha, are often placed in repitition as motif that will imbue auspicious meaning in the weapon. Often we have seen ultra simple symbolism such as the three dots applied often only at key locations on a blade, sometimes at a fuller, sometimes separating certain features or other markings on the blade.
The talismanic properties with this application seem very much like those found often on European blades, with certain religious and occult symbols applied near blade elements, inscriptions and marks seemingly to accent or emphasize the potency intended in them.

All very complex, but this is what makes the weapons so incredibly fascinating!

Best regards,
Jim

Battara · 5th April 2008, 08:47 PM

Yes Jim you are correct. Cato in Moro Swords mentions that the naga is a common motif used in especially kris. In fact the blade is the naga. The tree of life motif does not occur deliberately in Moro art. In Maranao Art you do not see this motif, but snakes (nagas) and other animals like crocodiles and birds are used, but only done using okir so that the image is not clear and traditionally conform to the edict in Islam not to make graven images. In the Philippines, Indonesia, and other parts of SE Asia the naga is a power symbol that is used. That is the purpose of a talisman - to empower the user/owner, and in the Philippines the naga and crocodile are such symbols and used on weaponry and cloth all over the southern Philippines (also see Textiles of the Southern Philippines). In the north on Luzon the imagery changes with the frog and lizard being talismans along with the naga (again a power symbol). I would have too look at my library to get the exact pages and other texts I am basing this on.

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 11:38 PM

Hi Jose,
Thank you so much for responding to my comments. These weapons are outside my regular fields of study, so I appreciate your explanation and detail on the symbolism and motif. The concepts seem very similar to those on the talismanic blades of Europe, at least in degree. I know your knowledge on these weapons is extensive, and while references are always nice for the general reading on the thread, they are not necessary for me to know your comments are right on target.

All very best regards,
Jim

Royston · 17th April 2008, 11:54 AM

This thread got me thinking about a Parang Nabur which has been hiding in a chest of drawers for the last 20 years ( Who has a house large enough to display everything ? ). I have just dug it out and photographed the symbols. Anyone seen these before ?

VVV · 17th April 2008, 04:19 PM

These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo.
Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same.
This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal.
The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc...
There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo.
Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same.
This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal.
The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc...
There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".

Nicely worded and concise comments on this Teodor. While I had known of the buduh, its concept was a bit unclear. Thank you for the info.
All the best,
Jim

3rd April 2008, 03:49 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Michael, It is an interesting thread, and I hope others will join in. Stephan Markel, at Los Angeles County Museum of Art, published an article in Jewellery Studies, vol. 10, 2004, where he writes ‘ The motif, shown in the centre and neck of the Taipei pot [shown in the article], is a round, broad leafed plant form with generally five, but sometimes three, four, or six petals terminating in a jagged edge. It is clearly different in botanical structure from the poppy flower portrayed frequently in Mughal art’. The interesting thing is that when it comes to floral decoration, it seems as if the artist had a lot of artistic freedom, but the same, surely would not count for religious or talismanic decorations. The attached shows what I believe to be the Mughal inspired poppies, looking quite different from the poppies he describes on the Taipei pot. Attached Images

4th April 2008, 10:54 AM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much Attached Images

4th April 2008, 01:07 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Flavio, To me it looks more like the attached. Some call it a cypress, and others The Tree of Life. Attached Images

4th April 2008, 02:30 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Flavio, Confused - that is nothing compared to what I am. The way I see it, there are three different kinds, decoration, symbolic and talismanic, and don't mix the last two, as they may not have anything to do with each other.

4th April 2008, 06:09 PM	#7
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Jose This symbols are on a dha... some kind of SSSS... Attached Images

4th April 2008, 01:58 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jens! What I found difficult is to understand which symbols are only decorations and which are talismanic symbols.... Thank you

4th April 2008, 06:14 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Battara, this is interesting, do you remember where you saw this? If, possible at all, these decorations can mean different things, and time is running out fast, if we want to know what they meant - if it is not too late already. There still are palm leaves, not yet translated, which may cast light on this - but when will they be translated, and if they do, will we know about it? Btw The Tree of Life is sometimes also called the Kundalini Flame, and both have to do with Yoga.

5th April 2008, 02:57 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I find this interesting too Jose. I can only see what looks like a plant in a vase, describing the kundalini or tree of life as Jens has described, however I know that the Moro keris focuses primarily on nagan symbolism. I was amazed to discover that while the serpentine blades represents the naga in motion...the straight blade also represents it...at rest. Decorative motif, symbols, markings and stylized elements are very confusing in weapons and it truly is hard to determine where symbolism ends and pure motif begins. It seems that certain devices or stylized symbols, such as the squiggle 'S' on the dha, are often placed in repitition as motif that will imbue auspicious meaning in the weapon. Often we have seen ultra simple symbolism such as the three dots applied often only at key locations on a blade, sometimes at a fuller, sometimes separating certain features or other markings on the blade. The talismanic properties with this application seem very much like those found often on European blades, with certain religious and occult symbols applied near blade elements, inscriptions and marks seemingly to accent or emphasize the potency intended in them. All very complex, but this is what makes the weapons so incredibly fascinating! Best regards, Jim

5th April 2008, 08:47 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Yes Jim you are correct. Cato in Moro Swords mentions that the naga is a common motif used in especially kris. In fact the blade is the naga. The tree of life motif does not occur deliberately in Moro art. In Maranao Art you do not see this motif, but snakes (nagas) and other animals like crocodiles and birds are used, but only done using okir so that the image is not clear and traditionally conform to the edict in Islam not to make graven images. In the Philippines, Indonesia, and other parts of SE Asia the naga is a power symbol that is used. That is the purpose of a talisman - to empower the user/owner, and in the Philippines the naga and crocodile are such symbols and used on weaponry and cloth all over the southern Philippines (also see Textiles of the Southern Philippines). In the north on Luzon the imagery changes with the frog and lizard being talismans along with the naga (again a power symbol). I would have too look at my library to get the exact pages and other texts I am basing this on.

5th April 2008, 11:38 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Jose, Thank you so much for responding to my comments. These weapons are outside my regular fields of study, so I appreciate your explanation and detail on the symbolism and motif. The concepts seem very similar to those on the talismanic blades of Europe, at least in degree. I know your knowledge on these weapons is extensive, and while references are always nice for the general reading on the thread, they are not necessary for me to know your comments are right on target. All very best regards, Jim

17th April 2008, 11:54 AM	#12
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	SYMBOLS ON A PARANG NABUR This thread got me thinking about a Parang Nabur which has been hiding in a chest of drawers for the last 20 years ( Who has a house large enough to display everything ? ). I have just dug it out and photographed the symbols. Anyone seen these before ? Attached Images

17th April 2008, 04:19 PM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo. Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same. This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal. The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc... There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".