Pirate swords and weapons 2

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2008, 03:30 PM

Hi Mark,
There is so much complexity in trying to clearly understand these early military orders and religious orders that evolved prior to and during the crusades, which were of course complex in understanding themselves. I am not sure that historians even agree specifically on exactly how many crusades or actual campaigns there were over the two hundred year + period.I must admit that I was struggling through "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" a full decade before Dan Brown wrote the "DaVinci Code", and found some relief in enjoying the movie!

Marc, thank you for showing the variations in the military orders and the forms and color coding of the crosses that have evolved in thier symbolism. It really is interesting that the color coding has become so key, as well as the fluerets added on the ends of the cross branches on some, and there is of course numeric symbolism in the eight point crosses.

It would be interesting to know just what the crosses worn on the knights' mantles really looked like, and for that matter, the crosses on the sails of Columbus' ships. While we naturally have no contemporary illustrations, and the artistic license of the art created much later and based loosely on narratives and the imagination of the artist, there is really no way to know for sure.
The reference that noted that Ferdinand's ships carried the red Christian cross on thier sails, may have meant that entirely metaphorically, suggesting that the expeditions were for the glory of the Church rather than the search for gold. The red crosses always depicted on the mantles of the crusaders seem to suggest similar symbolism. Whatever the case, it does seem unlikely that any cross or such device applied in those times would have incorporated the artistic elements of these later graphic interpretations with the key symbolisms imbued in the elements.

The simple 'maltese' cross that was stamped or carved into metalwork such as seen on blades would not have the benefit of color nor the intricacies seen in variations, so the specifics typically would remain assumed. The symbolism however would seem to allude to these orders and further to the apotropaic properties often applied in blade markings of the period.

Thanks very much Mark for the kind words! I really do wish I did have extensive knowledge on this subject, and my copy of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is so tattered and dogeared from all the years I've tried to understand it, my wife groans every time we take a flight and there I am with it!

Marc, its really great to have you come in on the thread, and I really appreciate you including those crosses and the various orders. The symbolism in these denote the fantastic and colorful history of Spain and Portugal and thier monumental importance in world history.

All very best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 5th April 2008, 06:03 AM

Jim, I had a question for you after re-reading this thread. Under the Spanish broadsword with the brass lion hilt, Spanish motto and Solingen marking, you mentioned that it is now believed that many of these were German imports from 1750-1810. Do you happen to know the source that you mention, as I have hoped for a more exact date on this piece. Thanks!

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 04:51 PM

Hi Mark,
From what I understand, the sword making industry in key locations in Spain, primarily of course Toledo, was having great difficulty in this period, and despite ordinances from Charles III, imports from Solingen still were being absorbed into shipments to the colonies. I would have to retrace old notes, but I think there are comments on this in the Wallace Collection volumes, describing swords with the 'Spanish motto'. The comments on the state of the industry in Spain were in a book on Spanish colonial ironwork by I believe Frank Turley.
It seems that the fullered blades with the motto were from Solingen, though I do believe the 'dragoon' blades c.1760's of hexagonal cross section were for mounting on regulation swords, and from Spain. As always, I would welcome confirmation on this from Marc.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th April 2008, 02:20 AM

Mark,
"Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour", Vol.II, Sir James Mann, 1962
p.268, #A520 a sword with earlier hilt (German), mounted with single edged blade at 37 3/4" , marked with 'NO SE SAQUES SIN RAZON'
NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR'
Stamped near hilt with P.Knecht near hilt , also with number '259' (suggesting numeric in a grouping of similar blades, and Mann suggests that the blade is German c.1770). The Knecht family 'traded' in swords in the 18th century, rather than being makers. On the opposite side of blade is 'Solingen' in similar location to the Knecht name stamp, but it is inscribed rather than stamped.

p.325, #A641, an early English or Flemish hilt, 17th century, mounted with double edged blade with central groove, 36 1/4" long.
NO ME SAQUES SIN RASON
NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
The blade late 17th early 18th century German as suggested by Mann.

These entries suggest that this 'Spanish motto' was in use possibly even earlier in the 18th century, though it seems most of them that appear in the colonies are from the latter part of the 18th century according to the descriptions in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain. References in that book also note that well known collector Bill Scollard had acquired large groups of these blades that had been stored from one shipment if I recall.

Another form of blades sent to the colonies in this manner were thin rapier blades , which apparantly were used in infantry officers rapiers that were used quite late, possibly even into late 18th century. I recall working on identifying a group of about 40 of these blades found in a wreck site many years ago in the Caribbean.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 6th April 2008, 02:58 AM

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

Jim McDougall · 6th April 2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

I'm inclined to agree with you on the period on the hilt Mark, and the lionhead style seems very much like Revolutionary War period as seen in the many examples of lionhead shown in Neumann. I seem to have lost what stamps or markings are on the blade of this sword other than the 'motto'. It seems logical that trade products such as blades would carry any number of stamps or marks as it progressively was retraded or refurbished.
In regimental swords for example, I had one British M1899 cavalry sword whose restamped markings revealed its history much in the way the stamps in a personal passport become same history.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 7th April 2008, 02:32 AM

Thanks, Jim. The maker/trader was Schimmerbursch & Hirschbaum, or something like that. Bezdek mentions that apart, their practices date to 1790's (roughly our period), but Bezdek also says they didn't become a firm together until first quarter of the 19th century, still possible, but sword looks older and styling of the earlier period. I guess best just to classify it as ca.1790-1820, pre-Mexico period.

5th April 2008, 06:03 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Hello Jim- A question? Jim, I had a question for you after re-reading this thread. Under the Spanish broadsword with the brass lion hilt, Spanish motto and Solingen marking, you mentioned that it is now believed that many of these were German imports from 1750-1810. Do you happen to know the source that you mention, as I have hoped for a more exact date on this piece. Thanks!

2nd April 2008, 03:30 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Mark, There is so much complexity in trying to clearly understand these early military orders and religious orders that evolved prior to and during the crusades, which were of course complex in understanding themselves. I am not sure that historians even agree specifically on exactly how many crusades or actual campaigns there were over the two hundred year + period.I must admit that I was struggling through "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" a full decade before Dan Brown wrote the "DaVinci Code", and found some relief in enjoying the movie! Marc, thank you for showing the variations in the military orders and the forms and color coding of the crosses that have evolved in thier symbolism. It really is interesting that the color coding has become so key, as well as the fluerets added on the ends of the cross branches on some, and there is of course numeric symbolism in the eight point crosses. It would be interesting to know just what the crosses worn on the knights' mantles really looked like, and for that matter, the crosses on the sails of Columbus' ships. While we naturally have no contemporary illustrations, and the artistic license of the art created much later and based loosely on narratives and the imagination of the artist, there is really no way to know for sure. The reference that noted that Ferdinand's ships carried the red Christian cross on thier sails, may have meant that entirely metaphorically, suggesting that the expeditions were for the glory of the Church rather than the search for gold. The red crosses always depicted on the mantles of the crusaders seem to suggest similar symbolism. Whatever the case, it does seem unlikely that any cross or such device applied in those times would have incorporated the artistic elements of these later graphic interpretations with the key symbolisms imbued in the elements. The simple 'maltese' cross that was stamped or carved into metalwork such as seen on blades would not have the benefit of color nor the intricacies seen in variations, so the specifics typically would remain assumed. The symbolism however would seem to allude to these orders and further to the apotropaic properties often applied in blade markings of the period. Thanks very much Mark for the kind words! I really do wish I did have extensive knowledge on this subject, and my copy of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is so tattered and dogeared from all the years I've tried to understand it, my wife groans every time we take a flight and there I am with it! Marc, its really great to have you come in on the thread, and I really appreciate you including those crosses and the various orders. The symbolism in these denote the fantastic and colorful history of Spain and Portugal and thier monumental importance in world history. All very best regards, Jim

5th April 2008, 04:51 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Mark, From what I understand, the sword making industry in key locations in Spain, primarily of course Toledo, was having great difficulty in this period, and despite ordinances from Charles III, imports from Solingen still were being absorbed into shipments to the colonies. I would have to retrace old notes, but I think there are comments on this in the Wallace Collection volumes, describing swords with the 'Spanish motto'. The comments on the state of the industry in Spain were in a book on Spanish colonial ironwork by I believe Frank Turley. It seems that the fullered blades with the motto were from Solingen, though I do believe the 'dragoon' blades c.1760's of hexagonal cross section were for mounting on regulation swords, and from Spain. As always, I would welcome confirmation on this from Marc. All the best, Jim

6th April 2008, 02:20 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Mark, "Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour", Vol.II, Sir James Mann, 1962 p.268, #A520 a sword with earlier hilt (German), mounted with single edged blade at 37 3/4" , marked with 'NO SE SAQUES SIN RAZON' NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR' Stamped near hilt with P.Knecht near hilt , also with number '259' (suggesting numeric in a grouping of similar blades, and Mann suggests that the blade is German c.1770). The Knecht family 'traded' in swords in the 18th century, rather than being makers. On the opposite side of blade is 'Solingen' in similar location to the Knecht name stamp, but it is inscribed rather than stamped. p.325, #A641, an early English or Flemish hilt, 17th century, mounted with double edged blade with central groove, 36 1/4" long. NO ME SAQUES SIN RASON NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR The blade late 17th early 18th century German as suggested by Mann. These entries suggest that this 'Spanish motto' was in use possibly even earlier in the 18th century, though it seems most of them that appear in the colonies are from the latter part of the 18th century according to the descriptions in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain. References in that book also note that well known collector Bill Scollard had acquired large groups of these blades that had been stored from one shipment if I recall. Another form of blades sent to the colonies in this manner were thin rapier blades , which apparantly were used in infantry officers rapiers that were used quite late, possibly even into late 18th century. I recall working on identifying a group of about 40 of these blades found in a wreck site many years ago in the Caribbean. All best regards, Jim

6th April 2008, 02:58 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

7th April 2008, 02:32 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,158	Thanks, Jim. The maker/trader was Schimmerbursch & Hirschbaum, or something like that. Bezdek mentions that apart, their practices date to 1790's (roughly our period), but Bezdek also says they didn't become a firm together until first quarter of the 19th century, still possible, but sword looks older and styling of the earlier period. I guess best just to classify it as ca.1790-1820, pre-Mexico period.