Genoui???

Dom · 27th March 2008, 12:51 AM

on the handle I found a date 1349 --> 1930

but, in my point of view it's the only thing arabic on that assembly
since I'm turning in Maghreb it's the first time I saw a similar dagger

à +

Dom

Marc · 27th March 2008, 10:11 AM

The blade is probably from an "albacete" dagger, that often featured that kind of decoration and these cutouts, normally filled with brass. There's been discussion about these daggers before, look for example HERE, or HERE. These were profusely made through the whole of the 19th c. and beggining of the 20th, so the date in the handle is perfectly coherent.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2008, 03:46 AM

Right on Marc! That would confirm the Moorish Spain influence imbued here that Gav suggested for the dagger overall.
This piece then would seem to at least reflect influence of the Albacete blades, whether or not the blade was actually made there. That openwork for placement of brass fill is most interesting, was it a feature distinct to Albacete only?

My quest for the source of the 'genouii' term Ariel used in opening this post has played havoc with my insomnia!

and fortunately a very good friend from Germany who is extremely knowledgeable in these weapons has given me some information that might help.

My friend has mentioned that the term 'djenoui' (also genoua; janwi) is a general reference in North Africa to imported blades, and is often applied to the form of koummya with straight blade termed s'boula in Morocco. The term carries further in Berber dialects to the Kabyles where it may even apply to the yataghan (also utagen;atayan;ajennwi; djenoui). Naturally the original reference to 'Genoa' for the early tradition of trade blades and weapons became broadened, as described. I just thought it might be interest to others collecting weapons from these regions.

The term 'djenoui' then, seems to be applied generally in Berber regions to imported blades (or perhaps of foreign style) much in the sense that 'firangi' is applied to swords with foreign blades in India. The term itself does not differentiate between straight and curved blades, however in Morocco the 'sboula' =straight blade; the 'shula' = curved.

I do not have my copy of Tirri handy, but perhaps he might have used the term in his captions on Maghreb daggers?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2008, 01:38 AM

I found my copy of 'Tirri' and found a very similar straight blade dagger is shown in fig.12 on p.31, and is termed 'janwi'.
Further noted, "... the name 'janwi' is thought to be a corruption of 'Genoa'from where the straight form of blade was introduced".
While I mentioned I had heard this or similar term before, it was as noted from my friend in Germany and predates the Tirri reference, and I was hoping to learn where the term used by Ariel had originated.

I had forgotten what an outstanding resource this book is, and while there have been relatively minor criticisms (as always) this book is incredibly comprehensive, beautifully photographed, and a fantastic identification guide for collectors.

The book I found the information in is:
"Islamic Weapons:Maghreb to Moghul" , Anthony C. Tirri, 2003.

27th March 2008, 12:51 AM	#1
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	on the handle I found a date 1349 --> 1930 but, in my point of view it's the only thing arabic on that assembly since I'm turning in Maghreb it's the first time I saw a similar dagger à + Dom

27th March 2008, 10:11 AM	#2
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	The blade is probably from an "albacete" dagger, that often featured that kind of decoration and these cutouts, normally filled with brass. There's been discussion about these daggers before, look for example HERE, or HERE. These were profusely made through the whole of the 19th c. and beggining of the 20th, so the date in the handle is perfectly coherent.

28th March 2008, 03:46 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Right on Marc! That would confirm the Moorish Spain influence imbued here that Gav suggested for the dagger overall. This piece then would seem to at least reflect influence of the Albacete blades, whether or not the blade was actually made there. That openwork for placement of brass fill is most interesting, was it a feature distinct to Albacete only? My quest for the source of the 'genouii' term Ariel used in opening this post has played havoc with my insomnia! and fortunately a very good friend from Germany who is extremely knowledgeable in these weapons has given me some information that might help. My friend has mentioned that the term 'djenoui' (also genoua; janwi) is a general reference in North Africa to imported blades, and is often applied to the form of koummya with straight blade termed s'boula in Morocco. The term carries further in Berber dialects to the Kabyles where it may even apply to the yataghan (also utagen;atayan;ajennwi; djenoui). Naturally the original reference to 'Genoa' for the early tradition of trade blades and weapons became broadened, as described. I just thought it might be interest to others collecting weapons from these regions. The term 'djenoui' then, seems to be applied generally in Berber regions to imported blades (or perhaps of foreign style) much in the sense that 'firangi' is applied to swords with foreign blades in India. The term itself does not differentiate between straight and curved blades, however in Morocco the 'sboula' =straight blade; the 'shula' = curved. I do not have my copy of Tirri handy, but perhaps he might have used the term in his captions on Maghreb daggers? All best regards, Jim

30th March 2008, 01:38 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I found my copy of 'Tirri' and found a very similar straight blade dagger is shown in fig.12 on p.31, and is termed 'janwi'. Further noted, "... the name 'janwi' is thought to be a corruption of 'Genoa'from where the straight form of blade was introduced". While I mentioned I had heard this or similar term before, it was as noted from my friend in Germany and predates the Tirri reference, and I was hoping to learn where the term used by Ariel had originated. I had forgotten what an outstanding resource this book is, and while there have been relatively minor criticisms (as always) this book is incredibly comprehensive, beautifully photographed, and a fantastic identification guide for collectors. The book I found the information in is: "Islamic Weapons:Maghreb to Moghul" , Anthony C. Tirri, 2003.