FYI The production of crucible Damascus steel

Andrew · 23rd March 2005, 11:52 PM

Ann, thank you for this outstanding information.

I'm going to "sticky" this thread for a while.

Ann Feuerbach · 24th March 2005, 12:33 AM

Thanks all, glad you like it

. I have also corrected the weblink, thank you Yannis. Believe it or not, I have alot more information (hence the forthcoming book, when I get time to finish it). Off the top of my head I think the last documented production in Southern India was 1902, and in Bukara, Uzbekistan 1850's.

Ian · 24th March 2005, 02:02 AM

Ann:

Thank you for your second major contribution today. Excellent.

Could I suggest to you and our Moderators that what you have written above, supplemented by a few well chosen illustrations and perhaps a short glossary of terms, would make an outstanding essay for our archives section.

Ian.

Mare Rosu · 24th March 2005, 12:19 PM

Ian
Good suggestion, how about it moderators?

I am also waiting for her book and and the movie that is sure to follow the book.

Gene

Gt Obach · 24th March 2005, 05:49 PM

Hi Ann

in regards to the sham pattern.. which by my definition is a pattern of straight and course waterings can be produced in hypereutectoid steel.... the way i've done this is through the technique of hammering the steel....

generally when you hammer steel, the face of the hammer has a crown or curvature..... and this dimples the steel causing it to flow outward...
- the hammer face has an effect on pattern
-- if you hammer with a flat faced french hammer... you distort the pattern very little...... and the waterings will be straighter

-- but if you use a small narrow face hammer with a curved crown...it'll give a very busy watering (this is all excluding cutting or drilling grooves for pattern effects)

i aggree with the waterings getting finer the more forge cycles.... since I hand hammer all my ingots by myself..... the few times I was lucky enough to have an apprentice, the pattern was coarse
- at the moment it takes 2days of forging with a 8 or 12lbs hammer to get the ingot to barstock
- as you can see on the net.... most other smiths use powerhammers and presses to make wootz.... so their patterns are usually coarse

- i suspect that in ancient times ...to produce a coarse pattern the master smith would have two apprenti, sledging down the ingot...... reducing the forge cycles dramatically

this is just my opinion

thank you for your post... it is wonderful !!!

Greg

here is a pic of a straight waterings... with the matrix oxide buffed out

Ann Feuerbach · 25th March 2005, 02:42 PM

Thanks Greg for the info on forging.

It is something very important but I have no practical experience at, and need imput from those who do. I would like to know how many man hours it takes to forge a knife or sword from ingot to finished product, using traditional forging methods, also how long it takes to sharpen and clean. For ethno-archaeometallurgical studies this is significant.
A standardized nomeclature for patterns does need to be further developed, but is tricky. I have more details on this and only included a bit here. The characteristion of Sham as hypoeutectic is not my "opinion". It was based on previous peoples characterisation (I think Verhoeven, Sashe, and others) together with metallurgical analysis.

Mare Rosu · 25th March 2005, 05:09 PM

Dr. Ann
I have sent you a PM, on Al Pendray.
Gene

24th March 2005, 12:19 PM	#4
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Movie? Ian Good suggestion, how about it moderators? I am also waiting for her book and and the movie that is sure to follow the book. Gene

24th March 2005, 05:49 PM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi Ann in regards to the sham pattern.. which by my definition is a pattern of straight and course waterings can be produced in hypereutectoid steel.... the way i've done this is through the technique of hammering the steel.... generally when you hammer steel, the face of the hammer has a crown or curvature..... and this dimples the steel causing it to flow outward... - the hammer face has an effect on pattern -- if you hammer with a flat faced french hammer... you distort the pattern very little...... and the waterings will be straighter -- but if you use a small narrow face hammer with a curved crown...it'll give a very busy watering (this is all excluding cutting or drilling grooves for pattern effects) i aggree with the waterings getting finer the more forge cycles.... since I hand hammer all my ingots by myself..... the few times I was lucky enough to have an apprentice, the pattern was coarse - at the moment it takes 2days of forging with a 8 or 12lbs hammer to get the ingot to barstock - as you can see on the net.... most other smiths use powerhammers and presses to make wootz.... so their patterns are usually coarse - i suspect that in ancient times ...to produce a coarse pattern the master smith would have two apprenti, sledging down the ingot...... reducing the forge cycles dramatically this is just my opinion thank you for your post... it is wonderful !!! Greg here is a pic of a straight waterings... with the matrix oxide buffed out Attached Images

25th March 2005, 05:09 PM	#7
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Al Pendray Dr. Ann I have sent you a PM, on Al Pendray. Gene

23rd March 2005, 11:52 PM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Ann, thank you for this outstanding information. I'm going to "sticky" this thread for a while.

24th March 2005, 12:33 AM	#2
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Thanks all, glad you like it . I have also corrected the weblink, thank you Yannis. Believe it or not, I have alot more information (hence the forthcoming book, when I get time to finish it). Off the top of my head I think the last documented production in Southern India was 1902, and in Bukara, Uzbekistan 1850's.

24th March 2005, 02:02 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Ann: Thank you for your second major contribution today. Excellent. Could I suggest to you and our Moderators that what you have written above, supplemented by a few well chosen illustrations and perhaps a short glossary of terms, would make an outstanding essay for our archives section. Ian.

25th March 2005, 02:42 PM	#6
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Thanks Greg for the info on forging. It is something very important but I have no practical experience at, and need imput from those who do. I would like to know how many man hours it takes to forge a knife or sword from ingot to finished product, using traditional forging methods, also how long it takes to sharpen and clean. For ethno-archaeometallurgical studies this is significant. A standardized nomeclature for patterns does need to be further developed, but is tricky. I have more details on this and only included a bit here. The characteristion of Sham as hypoeutectic is not my "opinion". It was based on previous peoples characterisation (I think Verhoeven, Sashe, and others) together with metallurgical analysis.