Does The Moro Kris Exhibit True Pamor

VANDOO · 17th March 2008, 05:43 PM

IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE SOME OF THE KERIS COLLECTORS AND MAKERS TAKE A LOOK AT THE VARIOUS PATTERNS FOUND IN OTHER TYPES OF WEAPONS SUCH AS MORO, PERSIAN INDIAN ECT. THEN THEY COULD FIGURE OUT WHAT TYPE OF KERIS PAMOR THEY MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLED.
IT COULD ALSO PERHAPS SHEAD SOME LIGHT ON THE ORIGINS OF THE PATTERNS IN MORO BLADES AS TO WHERE THE INFLUENCE FOR THE PATTERMS CAME FROM. FOR INSTANCE ARE THEY CLOSER TO INDONESIAN AND MALAYSIAN KERIS OR PERSIAN AND INDIAN PATTERNS?
I AM JUST GUESSING BUT THE MORO WEAPONS LOOK LIKE THEY WERE MORE INFLUENCED FROM PERSIA,INDIA,ARABIA ECT. WHAT THE WEAPONS LOOKED LIKE BEFORE THOSE TRIBES BECAME MORO IN THE PHILIPPINES IS UNKNOWN TO ME BUT WAS LIKELY WOOD,STONE AND BONE.

IT WOULD ALSO BE INTERESTING TO KNOW JUST HOW FAR BACK THE ART OF WORKING IRON GOES IN THE PHILIPPINES. IN MANY ISLAND SOCIETYS IRON WAS FIRST ENCOUNTERED THRU TRADERS AND PERHAPS SOME GROUPS MOVED IN LATER WITH IRONWORKERS.

I CAN SEE IT NOW A COLLECTOR SAYING THIS SHAMSHIR IS WOS WUTAH AND BRINGS GOOD LUCK AND PROTECTION TO THE OWNER, AND EVERYONE ELSE SAYS , WHAT!!!

VVV · 17th March 2008, 06:14 PM

Here is a Sulu, or Malay, Kris we discussed a couple of years ago.

Michael

Lew · 17th March 2008, 10:08 PM

Pamor to me is the pattern in the steel controlled or otherwise. So yes Moro kris in general have pamor. I have a klewang and a tulwar which both exhibit the classic grasshopper tooth pattern the klewang's pattern is considered pamor so why not the tulwar. On the other hand if the word pamor is being used only to describe specific patterns to enhance the owners luck health or to keep evil spirits away than maybe we are talking about two different things? Do Moro kris makers incorporate certain patterns to inhance a warriors spiritual powers or are these patterns just an artistic expression of said makers craft?

Lew

Emanuel · 17th March 2008, 10:57 PM

For my own usage I think I will reserve "pamor" for the formalized patterns seen in the Indo-Malay keris and use "pattern welded" as an umbrella term for every other type of complex lamination, be it random or controlled.

Since "pamor" as a Malay(?) word is used in the Indo-Malay culture only, I do not see the need to call non-Malay patterns by this same word. "Pamor" is also loaded with talismanic significance that is perhaps not applicable to other cultures.
I guess this whole question depends on how "pamor" is defined

Emanuel

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2008, 12:23 AM

As already noted, "pamor" is a Javanese and Malay word. It means "mixed", or "alloyed".

A Javanese person who sees pattern welded steel, or mechanical damascus will call it it "pamor".

If we talk about a specific pamor, we first identify what it is that we are talking about, ie, "pamor", then we give it the descriptor, eg, "udan mas", so we have:- pamor udan mas.

If we are considering , say, a piece of mechanical damascus with a random pattern, we might say that it is "pamor like wos wutah".

However, once the word pamor moves outside the Javanese or Malay languages and becomes a loan word in another language, then the users of that language that has adopted the loan word will define the meaning of the word for use in that new language. Thus, if "pamor" becomes a loan word in the English language, then the English speakers can decide what that word means to them, in English. Perhaps they might decide that "pamor" only refers to Indonesian and Malaysian pattern welding. This would be reasonable, since they already have words to describe pattern welding in other cultures.

However, there can be no doubt that the nature of pamor, the nature of mechanical damascus, the nature of pattern welded ferric material are all the same, and they are seen as such by the people who own the word "pamor", that is, the speakers of Javanese, and the Malay languages.

Now, we started to talk here about the Moro keris:- does the Moro keris have pamor or not?

An English speaker who does not know the word "pamor" will say that the pattern in a Moro blade is "pattern welding", or perhaps "damascus".

A Javanese speaker will say that the pattern in a Moro keris is "pamor".

What do the people who have the Moro style keris as a part of their culture call that which a speaker of Javanese would call "pamor"?

I think this is the question that must be answered, not what we who are not a part of that culture might want to call it.

ThePepperSkull · 12th July 2012, 08:25 AM

I must be going crazy because I remember reading about there being an equivalent word for "pamor" in bahasa sug, but I can't for the life of me remember where I found ot or what the word was. It wasn't Cato's book, but somewhere else.

Guh, now I won't be able to sleep tonight until I find it.

17th March 2008, 06:14 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here is a Sulu, or Malay, Kris we discussed a couple of years ago. Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 17th March 2008 at 06:34 PM.

17th March 2008, 10:08 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Pamor to me is the pattern in the steel controlled or otherwise. So yes Moro kris in general have pamor. I have a klewang and a tulwar which both exhibit the classic grasshopper tooth pattern the klewang's pattern is considered pamor so why not the tulwar. On the other hand if the word pamor is being used only to describe specific patterns to enhance the owners luck health or to keep evil spirits away than maybe we are talking about two different things? Do Moro kris makers incorporate certain patterns to inhance a warriors spiritual powers or are these patterns just an artistic expression of said makers craft? Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 17th March 2008 at 10:26 PM.

17th March 2008, 05:43 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HAVE SOME OF THE KERIS COLLECTORS AND MAKERS TAKE A LOOK AT THE VARIOUS PATTERNS FOUND IN OTHER TYPES OF WEAPONS SUCH AS MORO, PERSIAN INDIAN ECT. THEN THEY COULD FIGURE OUT WHAT TYPE OF KERIS PAMOR THEY MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLED. IT COULD ALSO PERHAPS SHEAD SOME LIGHT ON THE ORIGINS OF THE PATTERNS IN MORO BLADES AS TO WHERE THE INFLUENCE FOR THE PATTERMS CAME FROM. FOR INSTANCE ARE THEY CLOSER TO INDONESIAN AND MALAYSIAN KERIS OR PERSIAN AND INDIAN PATTERNS? I AM JUST GUESSING BUT THE MORO WEAPONS LOOK LIKE THEY WERE MORE INFLUENCED FROM PERSIA,INDIA,ARABIA ECT. WHAT THE WEAPONS LOOKED LIKE BEFORE THOSE TRIBES BECAME MORO IN THE PHILIPPINES IS UNKNOWN TO ME BUT WAS LIKELY WOOD,STONE AND BONE. IT WOULD ALSO BE INTERESTING TO KNOW JUST HOW FAR BACK THE ART OF WORKING IRON GOES IN THE PHILIPPINES. IN MANY ISLAND SOCIETYS IRON WAS FIRST ENCOUNTERED THRU TRADERS AND PERHAPS SOME GROUPS MOVED IN LATER WITH IRONWORKERS. I CAN SEE IT NOW A COLLECTOR SAYING THIS SHAMSHIR IS WOS WUTAH AND BRINGS GOOD LUCK AND PROTECTION TO THE OWNER, AND EVERYONE ELSE SAYS , WHAT!!!

17th March 2008, 10:57 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	For my own usage I think I will reserve "pamor" for the formalized patterns seen in the Indo-Malay keris and use "pattern welded" as an umbrella term for every other type of complex lamination, be it random or controlled. Since "pamor" as a Malay(?) word is used in the Indo-Malay culture only, I do not see the need to call non-Malay patterns by this same word. "Pamor" is also loaded with talismanic significance that is perhaps not applicable to other cultures. I guess this whole question depends on how "pamor" is defined Emanuel

18th March 2008, 12:23 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	As already noted, "pamor" is a Javanese and Malay word. It means "mixed", or "alloyed". A Javanese person who sees pattern welded steel, or mechanical damascus will call it it "pamor". If we talk about a specific pamor, we first identify what it is that we are talking about, ie, "pamor", then we give it the descriptor, eg, "udan mas", so we have:- pamor udan mas. If we are considering , say, a piece of mechanical damascus with a random pattern, we might say that it is "pamor like wos wutah". However, once the word pamor moves outside the Javanese or Malay languages and becomes a loan word in another language, then the users of that language that has adopted the loan word will define the meaning of the word for use in that new language. Thus, if "pamor" becomes a loan word in the English language, then the English speakers can decide what that word means to them, in English. Perhaps they might decide that "pamor" only refers to Indonesian and Malaysian pattern welding. This would be reasonable, since they already have words to describe pattern welding in other cultures. However, there can be no doubt that the nature of pamor, the nature of mechanical damascus, the nature of pattern welded ferric material are all the same, and they are seen as such by the people who own the word "pamor", that is, the speakers of Javanese, and the Malay languages. Now, we started to talk here about the Moro keris:- does the Moro keris have pamor or not? An English speaker who does not know the word "pamor" will say that the pattern in a Moro blade is "pattern welding", or perhaps "damascus". A Javanese speaker will say that the pattern in a Moro keris is "pamor". What do the people who have the Moro style keris as a part of their culture call that which a speaker of Javanese would call "pamor"? I think this is the question that must be answered, not what we who are not a part of that culture might want to call it.

12th July 2012, 08:25 AM	#6
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I must be going crazy because I remember reading about there being an equivalent word for "pamor" in bahasa sug, but I can't for the life of me remember where I found ot or what the word was. It wasn't Cato's book, but somewhere else. Guh, now I won't be able to sleep tonight until I find it.