Why Is It

kai · 14th March 2008, 10:47 AM

Hello Alan,

Are these old gonjo really all without pamor? I remember a few with linear lamination which seemed to be genuinely old (this pamor would not be visible as long as the keris is sheathed). Since the pamor layers are usually wider spread apart in Keris Bali it may be that the visual benefits of a blade with pamor gonjo were not that great anyway.

However, it is interesting to note that many Moro kris have laminated gangya despite not being treated with warangan and thus fairly inconspicuous. Seems like the forging/material for such large blades was less of an issue rather than local customs/style.

I'd lean towards the "hiding the pamor" working hypothesis but this seems difficult to test nowadays...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2008, 01:49 PM

Kai, the Philippines are not Jawa and Bali.

I do not know how Philippine smiths worked, but I do know very well the technology used in old Jawa and Bali, size of the work piece was definitely a factor.

When you get right down to close investigation of the origins of most cultural practices, the practice has its roots in solid practicality, only after it has been adopted because of practical reasons do religious and other reasons come into play and call the practice their own. Have a look at the food restrictions of various religions:- firmly based in practicality. Look at our beloved Ten Commandments:- complete practicality. It can go on and on.Something might be a cultural more or religious practice now, but 2000 years ago it was begun for a practical reason.

The world is a practical place, and mankind does not do things that do not return a profit.Not if he wants to survive. I use the word "profit" in the broadest possible sense.

David · 14th March 2008, 09:46 PM

I don't know. I am much more likely to lean towards the hiding the pamor theory than one of cost control. Cost and difficulty didn't seem to stop pamor on the gonjo on Javanese keris, why should it be the issue in Bali? And certainly i can see how hiding the pamor might be considered a "profit" to the owner of the keris, as you say Alan, in the broadest sense of the word.

kai · 14th March 2008, 10:30 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I do not know how Philippine smiths worked, but I do know very well the technology used in old Jawa and Bali, size of the work piece was definitely a factor.

Acknowledged. I didn't mean to suggest that a larger billet wouldn't be more difficult to forge.

However, don't have regular Keris from the Majapahit era often/usually gonjo with pamor? (Several of the early keris preserved in European collections do have a gonjo with pamor - all are out of stain and most are polished so it's hard to generalize). What are the oldest known keris originating from Bali like?

Assuming that early keris from Bali shared their characteristics with Keris Jawa, it seems that the gonjo lost their pamor during later development in Bali rather than this being based on practical constraints of the early keris smiths. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

One could argue that this development may have been correlated with the Keris Bali attaining a larger size (i.e. making it more and more difficult to forge a gonjo from the same billet than with their smaller cousins from Jawa). That's why I mentioned Moro kris since they still used laminated gangya (same material as used to sandwich the blade's steel core in between) despite even larger blades. This doesn't proove anything since these are separate cultural/technological developments but I yet have to see a strong case for the "forging constraints" hypothesis.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 14th March 2008, 10:34 PM

BTW, here's an example of a Moro kris with true pamor:
(Courtesy of Bill's collection .)

Rick · 15th March 2008, 12:12 AM

Hello Kai , Though we venture off topic (for this forum) I would propose that this example may not be a true Pamor; I would be more convinced in seeing other types of 'pamor' exhibited in Moro pieces .
All of the examples of Moro pieces (that I have seen) with any manipulation of the forging material only show this 'Turkish Ribbon' type .

Now, if I were to see a Udan Mas it might be a different story .

A. G. Maisey · 15th March 2008, 06:29 AM

Can we really accept that one day somebody woke up and said:- I reckon Pak Suwatsisnaam is trying to santet me; I'd better make sure he doesn't know what the pamor of my keris is, he might use it against me!

Then he whipped off to his friendly neighbourhood keris mechanic, and got a quick gonjo change so Pak Suwatsisnaam couldn't guess the pamor on his keris.

Probably better than 90% of Bali keris are wos wutah anyway, and those that are not are some other pretty innocuous sort of pamor. Be a real clever dukun who could use pamor wos wutah to santet somebody.

What I propose is this:-

a keris made with a plain black gonjo is cheaper to make than a keris made with a pamor gonjo.

the maker says to the customer that it will cost X quintals of beras more if he has a pamor gonjo rather than an iron gonjo.

customer says stick your pamor gonjo in a place where the sun don't shine; plain black gonjo is good enough for me.

over time plain black gonjo becomes the norm; simply a stylistic variation.

I am also thinking in terms of original cause, not developed belief.

In fact, I don't know if this "hide the pamor" game even existed in Bali. There seems to be some indication that it did exist in Jawa, but even there, I'm not too sure that it grew out of any belief that it afforded some protection against santet. Rather, I think it possibly grew as a justification by offended persons wanting to save face, when Sultan Agung decreed that only he in the kingdom of Mataram could wear a keris with a pamor gonjo.

We are talking Bali, and there is no doubt at all that in Bali up until quite recently the keris of the common man was a weapon.A plain iron gonjo serves its purpose as well as a pamor gonjo on a weapon, and its cheaper.

As to the difficulties involved in making large forgings.
In older Javanese keris I have seen a number of keris where it is obvious that the maker ran out of material to make a pesi. I've seen pesis forge welded into a drilled hole, I've see pesis forge welded over a stub, I've seen pesis welded on to the end of a blade and the external weld resulting in kul buntet of some similar pamor. These are Javanese keris, smaller keris than the typical 18-19th century Bali keris.

Remember this:- when you make a keris you cannot just make the blade and let it turn out whatever dimensions you like. No siree!! You have very strict formulas to stick to, to ensure that the measurements of the blade are not unfortunate for the specific client, or for the more general public in the case of a keris not being the subject of special order.Working within these strict parameters it is very easy to find that you do not have quite sufficient material to give the required dimensions, so you fudge a little and stick the pesi on with 18th century araldite, as an after-thought.When you measure a blade, the pesi doesn't count. In spite of how much some people might like to find the soul of the keris in its pesi, the fact of the matter is that the several systems of measurement ignore the pesi in calculations.

Now, if you do not have sufficient material to make a pesi, how can you have sufficient to make a gonjo?

Iron was expensive, pamor material was expensive, charcoal was expensive, and the work involved was expensive. A smith would work to minimums, not maximums, because those maximums would result in higher cost.

Nobody in their right mind spends more money than necessary, especially in an agrarian based society.

Still, this whole thing is something that cannot be proven. I cannot prove my argument, but I do think it is logical. If we can hear a logical argument in support of "hide the pamor", I'm more than happy to listen, but I think that before we begin we need to show that this "hide the pamor" belief did in fact exist in Bali.

David · 15th March 2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...a keris made with a plain black gonjo is cheaper to make than a keris made with a pamor gonjo.

the maker says to the customer that it will cost X quintals of beras more if he has a pamor gonjo rather than an iron gonjo.

customer says stick your pamor gonjo in a place where the sun don't shine; plain black gonjo is good enough for me.

over time plain black gonjo becomes the norm; simply a stylistic variation.

I would think that stylistic variation would depend somewhat on the style of higher quality court keris. Would this extra cost really be a factor there? Why was it not a factor with Javanese keris?
Perhaps the "hide the pamor" game was not a factor at all in Bali, but why would those with money and power be cutting corners on keris making? This does not make sense to me.

kai · 16th March 2008, 01:12 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

Probably better than 90% of Bali keris are wos wutah anyway, and those that are not are some other pretty innocuous sort of pamor. Be a real clever dukun who could use pamor wos wutah to santet somebody.

Thanks for the observation! One could argue that pamor did seem to have had less importance on Bali than on Java and, thus, it might be less likely to get focused on. (And also possibly less "needed" with the gonjo.)

Quote:

In fact, I don't know if this "hide the pamor" game even existed in Bali. There seems to be some indication that it did exist in Jawa, but even there, I'm not too sure that it grew out of any belief that it afforded some protection against santet. Rather, I think it possibly grew as a justification by offended persons wanting to save face, when Sultan Agung decreed that only he in the kingdom of Mataram could wear a keris with a pamor gonjo.

Quote:

We are talking Bali, and there is no doubt at all that in Bali up until quite recently the keris of the common man was a weapon.A plain iron gonjo serves its purpose as well as a pamor gonjo on a weapon, and its cheaper.
<snip>
Nobody in their right mind spends more money than necessary, especially in an agrarian based society.

Well, I'm not sure this is necessarily so. Weapons have - due to their very nature and importance - always been associated with a lot of magic, beliefs, rituals, talismans, what-have-you. These definitely served a purpose for the owner but they were not based on keeping the costs/efforts as low as possible. I'd agree that any associated cultural constraints would usually not go so far to compromise the function as a weapon. However, there are obviously a lot of added/changed things which don't have functional consequences and would thus be neutral and open to cultural developments.

Quote:

If we can hear a logical argument in support of "hide the pamor", I'm more than happy to listen, but I think that before we begin we need to show that this "hide the pamor" belief did in fact exist in Bali.

Ack.!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 16th March 2008, 12:22 AM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

I would propose that this example may not be a true Pamor; I would be more convinced in seeing other types of 'pamor' exhibited in Moro pieces .
All of the examples of Moro pieces (that I have seen) with any manipulation of the forging material only show this 'Turkish Ribbon' type .

Now, if I were to see a Udan Mas it might be a different story .

So, what's your definition of pamor? As long as Pamor Sanak qualifies as pamor I'm deadsure we have pamor with Moro kris, too. At least the twistcore kris are welded of different (iron/steel/alloy)s to make a specific visual pattern. I don't see the point why a certain pattern (or some diversity) needs to be present to meet any qualifying criteria.

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 16th March 2008, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Rick,

So, what's your definition of pamor? As long as Pamor Sanak qualifies as pamor I'm deadsure we have pamor with Moro kris, too. At least the twistcore kris are welded of different (iron/steel/alloy)s to make a specific visual pattern. I don't see the point why a certain pattern (or some diversity) needs to be present to meet any qualifying criteria.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,
I guess we could call the twist core kris pattern pamor sanak; but personally speaking I would be more convinced of this if I could see other recognisable Indonesian pamors evident in Moro krisses .

If there is only one pattern present in Moro kris that we can attribute an Indonesian pamor name to I will remain unsure on this matter .

Perhaps a separate thread about pamor in Moro krisses can be brought up in the Ethnographic forum .

I will be gone from the Warung until April fourth; so if I fail to respond to further posts from today on until that date I hope you will all understand .

I will be Hawaii bound at sea (can't wait!) .

Aloha for now and mahalo for your response Kai .

My best,
Rick

14th March 2008, 10:47 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, Are these old gonjo really all without pamor? I remember a few with linear lamination which seemed to be genuinely old (this pamor would not be visible as long as the keris is sheathed). Since the pamor layers are usually wider spread apart in Keris Bali it may be that the visual benefits of a blade with pamor gonjo were not that great anyway. However, it is interesting to note that many Moro kris have laminated gangya despite not being treated with warangan and thus fairly inconspicuous. Seems like the forging/material for such large blades was less of an issue rather than local customs/style. I'd lean towards the "hiding the pamor" working hypothesis but this seems difficult to test nowadays... Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 14th March 2008 at 08:58 PM. Reason: clarification

14th March 2008, 01:49 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Kai, the Philippines are not Jawa and Bali. I do not know how Philippine smiths worked, but I do know very well the technology used in old Jawa and Bali, size of the work piece was definitely a factor. When you get right down to close investigation of the origins of most cultural practices, the practice has its roots in solid practicality, only after it has been adopted because of practical reasons do religious and other reasons come into play and call the practice their own. Have a look at the food restrictions of various religions:- firmly based in practicality. Look at our beloved Ten Commandments:- complete practicality. It can go on and on.Something might be a cultural more or religious practice now, but 2000 years ago it was begun for a practical reason. The world is a practical place, and mankind does not do things that do not return a profit.Not if he wants to survive. I use the word "profit" in the broadest possible sense.

14th March 2008, 09:46 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I don't know. I am much more likely to lean towards the hiding the pamor theory than one of cost control. Cost and difficulty didn't seem to stop pamor on the gonjo on Javanese keris, why should it be the issue in Bali? And certainly i can see how hiding the pamor might be considered a "profit" to the owner of the keris, as you say Alan, in the broadest sense of the word.

14th March 2008, 10:34 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	BTW, here's an example of a Moro kris with true pamor: (Courtesy of Bill's collection .)

15th March 2008, 12:12 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hello Kai , Though we venture off topic (for this forum) I would propose that this example may not be a true Pamor; I would be more convinced in seeing other types of 'pamor' exhibited in Moro pieces . All of the examples of Moro pieces (that I have seen) with any manipulation of the forging material only show this 'Turkish Ribbon' type . Now, if I were to see a Udan Mas it might be a different story .

15th March 2008, 06:29 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Can we really accept that one day somebody woke up and said:- I reckon Pak Suwatsisnaam is trying to santet me; I'd better make sure he doesn't know what the pamor of my keris is, he might use it against me! Then he whipped off to his friendly neighbourhood keris mechanic, and got a quick gonjo change so Pak Suwatsisnaam couldn't guess the pamor on his keris. Probably better than 90% of Bali keris are wos wutah anyway, and those that are not are some other pretty innocuous sort of pamor. Be a real clever dukun who could use pamor wos wutah to santet somebody. What I propose is this:- a keris made with a plain black gonjo is cheaper to make than a keris made with a pamor gonjo. the maker says to the customer that it will cost X quintals of beras more if he has a pamor gonjo rather than an iron gonjo. customer says stick your pamor gonjo in a place where the sun don't shine; plain black gonjo is good enough for me. over time plain black gonjo becomes the norm; simply a stylistic variation. I am also thinking in terms of original cause, not developed belief. In fact, I don't know if this "hide the pamor" game even existed in Bali. There seems to be some indication that it did exist in Jawa, but even there, I'm not too sure that it grew out of any belief that it afforded some protection against santet. Rather, I think it possibly grew as a justification by offended persons wanting to save face, when Sultan Agung decreed that only he in the kingdom of Mataram could wear a keris with a pamor gonjo. We are talking Bali, and there is no doubt at all that in Bali up until quite recently the keris of the common man was a weapon.A plain iron gonjo serves its purpose as well as a pamor gonjo on a weapon, and its cheaper. As to the difficulties involved in making large forgings. In older Javanese keris I have seen a number of keris where it is obvious that the maker ran out of material to make a pesi. I've seen pesis forge welded into a drilled hole, I've see pesis forge welded over a stub, I've seen pesis welded on to the end of a blade and the external weld resulting in kul buntet of some similar pamor. These are Javanese keris, smaller keris than the typical 18-19th century Bali keris. Remember this:- when you make a keris you cannot just make the blade and let it turn out whatever dimensions you like. No siree!! You have very strict formulas to stick to, to ensure that the measurements of the blade are not unfortunate for the specific client, or for the more general public in the case of a keris not being the subject of special order.Working within these strict parameters it is very easy to find that you do not have quite sufficient material to give the required dimensions, so you fudge a little and stick the pesi on with 18th century araldite, as an after-thought.When you measure a blade, the pesi doesn't count. In spite of how much some people might like to find the soul of the keris in its pesi, the fact of the matter is that the several systems of measurement ignore the pesi in calculations. Now, if you do not have sufficient material to make a pesi, how can you have sufficient to make a gonjo? Iron was expensive, pamor material was expensive, charcoal was expensive, and the work involved was expensive. A smith would work to minimums, not maximums, because those maximums would result in higher cost. Nobody in their right mind spends more money than necessary, especially in an agrarian based society. Still, this whole thing is something that cannot be proven. I cannot prove my argument, but I do think it is logical. If we can hear a logical argument in support of "hide the pamor", I'm more than happy to listen, but I think that before we begin we need to show that this "hide the pamor" belief did in fact exist in Bali.