Native North African sword

CharlesS · 6th March 2008, 01:26 PM

Looks to be a remarkably crude...and sadly...just plain ugly...Omani kattara. I betting this "wrap"(especially the hilt) is much later than the original fittings OR is the underlining to the original leather.

Here is what it more likely orginally looked like.(Example from Artzi's site)

Bill M · 6th March 2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Looks to be a remarkably crude...and sadly...just plain ugly...Omani kattara.

"Ugly?" I can accept "crude"

[Blows raspberry] further remarks deleted

Well, on looking at the pictures again, it ain't the prettiest sword in the world! But I still like it.

CharlesS · 6th March 2008, 02:05 PM

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

Bill M · 6th March 2008, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

VANDOO · 6th March 2008, 05:05 PM

BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD

WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN

NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

kronckew · 6th March 2008, 05:25 PM

a true user.

in a real battle with possibly multiple opponents, there is not much need to have more than the first part of the blade sharpened, and there are stories of the japanese in times of battle (rather than peacetime duels) deliberately dulling the rearward portion of their blades as the dull edge was less likely to nick in a manner that might cause the blade to then break under the extreme stress of battle against further armoured opponents. the razor sharpness of the peacetime sword which was likely to be used only against unarmoured single opponets in quickly ended duels was a bit of a liability in a real battle.

ariel · 6th March 2008, 06:32 PM

I think we have a hybrid here.
Originally, it was a Kattara, as evidenced by the blade and the typical outline of the handle.
However, the scabbard, with its parallel leather strips , looks very Manding. Especially the "drag" portion of it ( the best preserved one) is very, very, very Manding! And, of course, the handle: the Omani solid and heavy counterweight pommel was lost (discarded?) and a flimsy cap was put in its place. The top was also sharpened sometimes on route from Oman to West Africa.
Well traveled sword...
With the current fascination by canine designer breeds, such as Cockapoo, Labrapoo, Chihuastiffe , a mix of Chihuahua and Neapolitan Mastiffe (not yet developed, but certainly coming soon to the "PetWorld" near you) we may start paying more attention to the transitional forms of weapons. Most likely, they will tell us something important about ancient migrations and clashes of civilizations.

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2008, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD

WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN

NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

LOL!!!

Vandoo you are amazing! Out of nowhere you drag out Boris Karloff in "The Mummys Curse" ! What an incredible command of classic movies. I was thinking about a mummy sword too. Thanks I needed the chuckles.

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 6th March 2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre".

I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why.

NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

My thoughts on coverings of these African swords is that the steel would get extremely hot under the African sun, I don't think I could wield comfortably a sword that has been sitting in 40 degree plus heat all day, chances are that your hands would first reach for the steel pommel before being drawn and if it had a guard fingers would get burnt there too upon gripping the blade....

regards

Gav

Chris Evans · 7th March 2008, 05:04 AM

Hi Gavin,

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

My thoughts on coverings of these African swords is that the steel would get extremely hot under the African sun, I don't think I could wield comfortably a sword that has been sitting in 40 degree plus heat all day, chances are that your hands would first reach for the steel pommel before being drawn and if it had a guard fingers would get burnt there too upon gripping the blade....

regards

Gav

A rather astute observation, if I may say so - I often wondered about this, especially the arms and armour worn during the crusades - Helmets and armour must have got dangerously hot, even in European summers, let alone the ME summers. Maybe they wore gloves or gauntlets, and perhaps shielded it from the sun with some cloth.

Cheers
Chris
PS What happened to your king sized navaja?

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2008, 07:41 PM

"...or art thou a dagger of the mind, a false creation
proceeding from heat oppressed brain?"
MacBeth II, i.33
The effects of heat on weapons and armour is very much a reality.

I agree with Chris, Gav's observation is very well placed. I do know that many edged weapons had steel hilts covered with leather for this, as one reason. In the 19th century, many of the steel hilts on the sabres worn by horsemen in the heat of the Mexican deserts were covered with sewn leather covers. This is also true of British 'colonial' swords, in desert regions of India such as the Punjab and Sind, the steel hilts also had leather covers. I once had a British WWI pattern 1908 cavalry sword with a huge steel bowl hilt. This was one used by General Allenby's cavalry in the campaigns in the Middle East, and the hilt was covered in sewn leather.
It is also suggested that the purpose of these leather covered hilts was to prevent accidental glints or reflection from the sun revealing positions of cavalry, however that seems unlikely as the clatter of horse trappings and thunder of hooves in mass, the dust stirred not withstanding, would be more likely to reveal such presence.

As to armour in the Crusades and Middle East, in fact to ancient times, the effects of heat on the wearer is a very real, however not often discussed, reality.

"...the heat of summer made the armour insupportable and exposed the wearer to the dangers of suffocation and apoplexy, or produced at least, such debility as to disable him from wielding his weapons".
"The History of Chivalry and Armour"
Dr. F.Kottenkamp, 1850

"...the real problem with armour was not its weight but the way it trapped heat. Body heat resulting from battle exertion could prove fatal. At the Battle of Agincourt (1415) the Duke of York seems to have died of a heart attack brought on by 'the heat of battle'.
"Brasseys Book of Body Armour"
Robert Wasasnam-Savage,2000, p.70

"...it is one of the mysteries in the history of armour, how the crusaders can have fought under the scorching sun of the East in thick quilted garments covered with excessively heavy chain mail".
-Brittanica, p.392

None of these resources reveals any particular means of resolving the obviously well established problem of heat and its effect on the armoured individual, but these references do acknowledge awareness of it.

As for the sword, the covering of the hilt in leather does seem to be intended to reduce the obvious effects of hot steel in these cases.However with the leather covered hilts of the takouba swords of the Tuareg, the purpose is basically apotropaic, as it is a taboo for them to touch iron.

A very interesting perspective, and well represented by this 'mummified' sword

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 7th March 2008, 08:23 PM

This looks like West African as mentioned before. The markings on what is left of the leather is a dead give alway as is the sack cloth bulk of the scabbard and handle. You can find cardboard, scrap silk and other materials for this purpuse. As for the the blade travalling all the way from Zanibar, is a little romantic when one considers the trade in west Africa, the trade coast. Especially as we do appear to be looking at a trade blade. Where this blade originated is a little more tricky to be sure of. Britain, Denmark, Holland, France,Germany, Spain? all had a finger in the pie. That sounds quite unpleasant.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2008, 02:04 PM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I'm completely on board with Lee and Charles in that this seems likely to be Omani, and is most likely, as noted, a rugged piece carried by a tribesman. While this one certainly carries none of the attractiveness of the examples from Oman as seen on Artzis site, it is definitely loaded with desert charm and perhaps mystery.
While this has appearances of the kattara, especially in the guardless hilt, and has a blade typical of kaskaras, seen also on the Omani kattaras, there are elements that do bring this to North Africa.
The presence of reptile skin is one, but also the blade tip is sharpened to a spear type point, contrary to the somewhat spatulate tips on kattaras. The rugged cloth wrapping suggests many desert weapons carried by tribes of Bedouin .

I have always considered the unusual guardless sabres of the Manding, found primarily in Mali, to be possibly associated to the Omani kattara at least nominally owing to the hilt. The trade routes of the Sahara clearly diffused both cultural elements as well as weaponry across North Africa, which clearly has included forms from as far as Zanzibar, through Ethiopia and points through and beyond. The Omani Sultanate at Zanzibar was of course one of the key trade centers throughout the 19th century, and I strongly believe the weapon forms, especially the kattara, found thier way into both Red Sea trade routes in the maritime sense, and into the Sudan, Sahara as well. Since this was typically not of course, a singular push of that entire distance, but the result of tribal interface and trade at given point, these weapons might well have come into Bedouin hands, or certainly influenced the tribesmen.

There is the mystery..at what point in North Africa, and by what tribal group, would this interpretive kattara have become incarnate? By appearance it seems somewhat Bedouin, the reptile skin suggests the Sudan, and the shape and style of the hilt suggests anything from Oman itself to Mali.
It should be noted that cylindrical hilts, however with a pommel, carrying kaskara form blades are also known in West Africa as far as Sierra Leone.

A very interesting piece, definitely has charisma!

All the best,
Jim

6th March 2008, 01:26 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Looks to be a remarkably crude...and sadly...just plain ugly...Omani kattara. I betting this "wrap"(especially the hilt) is much later than the original fittings OR is the underlining to the original leather. Here is what it more likely orginally looked like.(Example from Artzi's site) Attached Images

6th March 2008, 02:05 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	....sorry....maybe better words would have been "stripped of it original lustre". I have seen several(at least 3) of these recovered with an equally unattractive rawhide type leather...the whole thing would be covered up, metal fittings and all...I never could quite figure out why. NO worries Bill....you have no monopoly on "ugly lovables"....I think we all have a few like that in our collections.

6th March 2008, 05:05 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BEWARE!!! THIS IS UNDOUTABLY THE SWORD OF KARIS WHICH WAS STOLDEN FROM HIS TOMB IN EGYPT A HUNDRED YEARS AGO. HE HAS BEEN STUMBELING AROUND EVER SINCE LOOKING FOR HIS MUMMY'S SWORD WHEN KARIS WAS WRAPPED UP THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO THEY USED SOME OF THE SAME WRAP FOR HIS SWORD SO IT WOULD MATCH HIS OUTFIT. SO IF YOU HEAR A DRAGGING NOISE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SEE A SHADOW WITH ONE ARM STUCK OUT IN FRONT RUN NOW YOU HAVE A STORY TO GO WITH THE NEAT SWORD

6th March 2008, 05:25 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	a true user. in a real battle with possibly multiple opponents, there is not much need to have more than the first part of the blade sharpened, and there are stories of the japanese in times of battle (rather than peacetime duels) deliberately dulling the rearward portion of their blades as the dull edge was less likely to nick in a manner that might cause the blade to then break under the extreme stress of battle against further armoured opponents. the razor sharpness of the peacetime sword which was likely to be used only against unarmoured single opponets in quickly ended duels was a bit of a liability in a real battle.

6th March 2008, 06:32 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we have a hybrid here. Originally, it was a Kattara, as evidenced by the blade and the typical outline of the handle. However, the scabbard, with its parallel leather strips , looks very Manding. Especially the "drag" portion of it ( the best preserved one) is very, very, very Manding! And, of course, the handle: the Omani solid and heavy counterweight pommel was lost (discarded?) and a flimsy cap was put in its place. The top was also sharpened sometimes on route from Oman to West Africa. Well traveled sword... With the current fascination by canine designer breeds, such as Cockapoo, Labrapoo, Chihuastiffe , a mix of Chihuahua and Neapolitan Mastiffe (not yet developed, but certainly coming soon to the "PetWorld" near you) we may start paying more attention to the transitional forms of weapons. Most likely, they will tell us something important about ancient migrations and clashes of civilizations.

7th March 2008, 07:41 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	"...or art thou a dagger of the mind, a false creation proceeding from heat oppressed brain?" MacBeth II, i.33 The effects of heat on weapons and armour is very much a reality. I agree with Chris, Gav's observation is very well placed. I do know that many edged weapons had steel hilts covered with leather for this, as one reason. In the 19th century, many of the steel hilts on the sabres worn by horsemen in the heat of the Mexican deserts were covered with sewn leather covers. This is also true of British 'colonial' swords, in desert regions of India such as the Punjab and Sind, the steel hilts also had leather covers. I once had a British WWI pattern 1908 cavalry sword with a huge steel bowl hilt. This was one used by General Allenby's cavalry in the campaigns in the Middle East, and the hilt was covered in sewn leather. It is also suggested that the purpose of these leather covered hilts was to prevent accidental glints or reflection from the sun revealing positions of cavalry, however that seems unlikely as the clatter of horse trappings and thunder of hooves in mass, the dust stirred not withstanding, would be more likely to reveal such presence. As to armour in the Crusades and Middle East, in fact to ancient times, the effects of heat on the wearer is a very real, however not often discussed, reality. "...the heat of summer made the armour insupportable and exposed the wearer to the dangers of suffocation and apoplexy, or produced at least, such debility as to disable him from wielding his weapons". "The History of Chivalry and Armour" Dr. F.Kottenkamp, 1850 "...the real problem with armour was not its weight but the way it trapped heat. Body heat resulting from battle exertion could prove fatal. At the Battle of Agincourt (1415) the Duke of York seems to have died of a heart attack brought on by 'the heat of battle'. "Brasseys Book of Body Armour" Robert Wasasnam-Savage,2000, p.70 "...it is one of the mysteries in the history of armour, how the crusaders can have fought under the scorching sun of the East in thick quilted garments covered with excessively heavy chain mail". -Brittanica, p.392 None of these resources reveals any particular means of resolving the obviously well established problem of heat and its effect on the armoured individual, but these references do acknowledge awareness of it. As for the sword, the covering of the hilt in leather does seem to be intended to reduce the obvious effects of hot steel in these cases.However with the leather covered hilts of the takouba swords of the Tuareg, the purpose is basically apotropaic, as it is a taboo for them to touch iron. A very interesting perspective, and well represented by this 'mummified' sword All best regards, Jim

7th March 2008, 08:23 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This looks like West African as mentioned before. The markings on what is left of the leather is a dead give alway as is the sack cloth bulk of the scabbard and handle. You can find cardboard, scrap silk and other materials for this purpuse. As for the the blade travalling all the way from Zanibar, is a little romantic when one considers the trade in west Africa, the trade coast. Especially as we do appear to be looking at a trade blade. Where this blade originated is a little more tricky to be sure of. Britain, Denmark, Holland, France,Germany, Spain? all had a finger in the pie. That sounds quite unpleasant.

6th March 2008, 02:04 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I'm completely on board with Lee and Charles in that this seems likely to be Omani, and is most likely, as noted, a rugged piece carried by a tribesman. While this one certainly carries none of the attractiveness of the examples from Oman as seen on Artzis site, it is definitely loaded with desert charm and perhaps mystery. While this has appearances of the kattara, especially in the guardless hilt, and has a blade typical of kaskaras, seen also on the Omani kattaras, there are elements that do bring this to North Africa. The presence of reptile skin is one, but also the blade tip is sharpened to a spear type point, contrary to the somewhat spatulate tips on kattaras. The rugged cloth wrapping suggests many desert weapons carried by tribes of Bedouin . I have always considered the unusual guardless sabres of the Manding, found primarily in Mali, to be possibly associated to the Omani kattara at least nominally owing to the hilt. The trade routes of the Sahara clearly diffused both cultural elements as well as weaponry across North Africa, which clearly has included forms from as far as Zanzibar, through Ethiopia and points through and beyond. The Omani Sultanate at Zanzibar was of course one of the key trade centers throughout the 19th century, and I strongly believe the weapon forms, especially the kattara, found thier way into both Red Sea trade routes in the maritime sense, and into the Sudan, Sahara as well. Since this was typically not of course, a singular push of that entire distance, but the result of tribal interface and trade at given point, these weapons might well have come into Bedouin hands, or certainly influenced the tribesmen. There is the mystery..at what point in North Africa, and by what tribal group, would this interpretive kattara have become incarnate? By appearance it seems somewhat Bedouin, the reptile skin suggests the Sudan, and the shape and style of the hilt suggests anything from Oman itself to Mali. It should be noted that cylindrical hilts, however with a pommel, carrying kaskara form blades are also known in West Africa as far as Sierra Leone. A very interesting piece, definitely has charisma! All the best, Jim