Elephant Sword

Bill M · 29th February 2008, 11:31 PM

In speaking of using their trunks, I had a friend in the Marines who was stationed somewhere there were wild elephants. He said they were incredibly quiet when moving through heavy brush and jungle.

But that when they attacked, they sometimes pulled up a small tree with a trunk about 3 or 4 inches in diameter with their trunk and they would beat the ground with it when they charged.

A frightening aspect!

olikara · 1st March 2008, 12:54 PM

I visited Jaipur and Udaipur Palaces in Rajasthan, India in the early 80's. I can distinctly remember Rajput miniatures contemporary to the 17, 18 Centuries in the palace galleries, depicting elephants holding edged weapons in their trunks.

It is also accepted that at battle of Haldighati on June 18, 1576, the Rajput Chief Rana Pratap's beloved horse 'Chetak' had it's leg slashed by a sword attached to a rampaging Mogul elephant. This is common knowledge here.

I have absolutely no doubt at all, that War elephants in India carried edged weapons in their trunks, may not be all of them but certainly many of them.

katana · 1st March 2008, 02:42 PM

Stone's ..."A glossary...Arms and Armour.." mentions Elephant swords..that they were frequently mentioned by early travellers....."Ludovici di Varthema (1501-1568 ) says that they were 2 fathoms long and attached to the trunk.

Stone then states..." More reasonable accounts describe them as blades projecting from sockets slipped over the tusks...."

A 2 fathom sword would be just over 3.60 metres long ...thats 12 foot ...a sword the length of TWO men

. The thickness of the blade, to prevent excessive flexing would make the sword incredibly heavy and totally unuseable and I can certainly see why Stone is dubious about this reference.

With Olikara's information. the use of the 'trunk type' sword seems to have been abandoned in favour to the tusk type as any reference to them seem to be be hundreds of years ago.

Olikara you mentioned the slashing of the horse's leg by a sword 'attached' to an Elephant, could this have been the 'tusk type' or the bladed spikes strapped to the trunks...rather than a 'trunk held' sword?

I am surprised that if so many War Elephants were equiped with swords that there seems to be no examples that have survived

Regards David

fearn · 1st March 2008, 02:58 PM

Here's another possibility: elephants often do carry sticks of all sizes in their trunks, and some clever type may have decided to train them to carry a sword in their trunk in place of a stick.

I doubt that the elephant could be trained to effectively chop with that sword, but it might have been psychological weapon--the war elephant would be carrying a sword and waving it around and trumpeting, while the soldiers in the pagoda did something more effective with their weapons.

In that case, all an elephant sword would have to be is heavily built enough to survive being banged around by the elephant. Having it sharp might have even been an impediment.

As I noted above, training an elephant to kill people could be a really bad idea. It's easy enough for them to kill us without training, and trained killer elephants would be dangerous at all times, not just on the battlefield. That said, someone could put spikes on the tusks to make them better weapons, without training the elephant to do anything special with them.

Anyway, there is a problem with an elephant using a sword with its trunk. It would have a hard time getting enough leverage to cut with it. To see what problem is, take a kitchen knife (or a pocket knife), hold it only with your index finger curled around the hilt, and try cutting something. The elephant's trunk is more versatile than a single finger, but I think they've got the same problem.

katana · 1st March 2008, 03:57 PM

One of the tactics employed by foot soldiers ...when faced with Elephants ..is to sever the trunk

A highly sensitive organ, the animal would suffer extreme pain and would be panicked and would often run away. That said, armour and chainmail was used to protect this vunerable area. The weight and restrictive movement of the armoured trunk would also make wielding a sword even less likely.

Psychological warfare perhaps, is a possible answer, that being the case, the sword would only have too look 'impressive' and not be functional. Too look impressive it had to be large, but not being functional it could be made lighter with a very thin spine to allow the elephant to hold it more easily.

Many Mughal War Elephants had chains (with heavy balls attatched) fitted to their trunks to lash out at the opposition.

"A beautiful example of chain-mail armor and an elephant trained to swing a chain-weapon in its trunk. The chains on the elephant's feet would be tightened or staked into the ground to prevent it from running away from the battle, if frightened."

Photo below has this caption...

"Maharao Durjansal of Kotah on His Elephant Ranasangar" circa 1760,

olikara · 1st March 2008, 04:41 PM

I was just looking up at The Battle of Haldighati on Wiki and it states there that 'Elephant Trunk Sword' is called 'Mardana'

While I am hearing of such a term being applied to an edged weapon for the first time, I know that 'Mardana' in Hindi stands for 'Manly/Masculine'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharana_Pratap

Disclaimer: I can in no way vouch for the veracity of information on Wikipidea!

fearn · 2nd March 2008, 03:24 AM

Olikara,

I remember in one book on Chinese weapons, an "elephant trunk sword" was something like a hook sword (tip recurved like an elephant's trunk). In the wikipedia, it sounds like the weapon may have been shaped like an elephant trunk, rather than wielded by an elephant. Can't tell for certain, but that's my guess.

Katana,

actually, that elephant flail gizmo makes more sense than the sword. Neat find!

F

1st March 2008, 12:54 PM	#2
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Jaipur and Udaipur Palace Paintings I visited Jaipur and Udaipur Palaces in Rajasthan, India in the early 80's. I can distinctly remember Rajput miniatures contemporary to the 17, 18 Centuries in the palace galleries, depicting elephants holding edged weapons in their trunks. It is also accepted that at battle of Haldighati on June 18, 1576, the Rajput Chief Rana Pratap's beloved horse 'Chetak' had it's leg slashed by a sword attached to a rampaging Mogul elephant. This is common knowledge here. I have absolutely no doubt at all, that War elephants in India carried edged weapons in their trunks, may not be all of them but certainly many of them.

1st March 2008, 03:57 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	One of the tactics employed by foot soldiers ...when faced with Elephants ..is to sever the trunk A highly sensitive organ, the animal would suffer extreme pain and would be panicked and would often run away. That said, armour and chainmail was used to protect this vunerable area. The weight and restrictive movement of the armoured trunk would also make wielding a sword even less likely. Psychological warfare perhaps, is a possible answer, that being the case, the sword would only have too look 'impressive' and not be functional. Too look impressive it had to be large, but not being functional it could be made lighter with a very thin spine to allow the elephant to hold it more easily. Many Mughal War Elephants had chains (with heavy balls attatched) fitted to their trunks to lash out at the opposition. "A beautiful example of chain-mail armor and an elephant trained to swing a chain-weapon in its trunk. The chains on the elephant's feet would be tightened or staked into the ground to prevent it from running away from the battle, if frightened." Photo below has this caption... "Maharao Durjansal of Kotah on His Elephant Ranasangar" circa 1760, Attached Images

1st March 2008, 04:41 PM	#6
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Mardana I was just looking up at The Battle of Haldighati on Wiki and it states there that 'Elephant Trunk Sword' is called 'Mardana' While I am hearing of such a term being applied to an edged weapon for the first time, I know that 'Mardana' in Hindi stands for 'Manly/Masculine'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharana_Pratap Disclaimer: I can in no way vouch for the veracity of information on Wikipidea!

29th February 2008, 11:31 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	In speaking of using their trunks, I had a friend in the Marines who was stationed somewhere there were wild elephants. He said they were incredibly quiet when moving through heavy brush and jungle. But that when they attacked, they sometimes pulled up a small tree with a trunk about 3 or 4 inches in diameter with their trunk and they would beat the ground with it when they charged. A frightening aspect!

1st March 2008, 02:42 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Stone's ..."A glossary...Arms and Armour.." mentions Elephant swords..that they were frequently mentioned by early travellers....."Ludovici di Varthema (1501-1568 ) says that they were 2 fathoms long and attached to the trunk. Stone then states..." More reasonable accounts describe them as blades projecting from sockets slipped over the tusks...." A 2 fathom sword would be just over 3.60 metres long ...thats 12 foot ...a sword the length of TWO men . The thickness of the blade, to prevent excessive flexing would make the sword incredibly heavy and totally unuseable and I can certainly see why Stone is dubious about this reference. With Olikara's information. the use of the 'trunk type' sword seems to have been abandoned in favour to the tusk type as any reference to them seem to be be hundreds of years ago. Olikara you mentioned the slashing of the horse's leg by a sword 'attached' to an Elephant, could this have been the 'tusk type' or the bladed spikes strapped to the trunks...rather than a 'trunk held' sword? I am surprised that if so many War Elephants were equiped with swords that there seems to be no examples that have survived Regards David

1st March 2008, 02:58 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Here's another possibility: elephants often do carry sticks of all sizes in their trunks, and some clever type may have decided to train them to carry a sword in their trunk in place of a stick. I doubt that the elephant could be trained to effectively chop with that sword, but it might have been psychological weapon--the war elephant would be carrying a sword and waving it around and trumpeting, while the soldiers in the pagoda did something more effective with their weapons. In that case, all an elephant sword would have to be is heavily built enough to survive being banged around by the elephant. Having it sharp might have even been an impediment. As I noted above, training an elephant to kill people could be a really bad idea. It's easy enough for them to kill us without training, and trained killer elephants would be dangerous at all times, not just on the battlefield. That said, someone could put spikes on the tusks to make them better weapons, without training the elephant to do anything special with them. Anyway, there is a problem with an elephant using a sword with its trunk. It would have a hard time getting enough leverage to cut with it. To see what problem is, take a kitchen knife (or a pocket knife), hold it only with your index finger curled around the hilt, and try cutting something. The elephant's trunk is more versatile than a single finger, but I think they've got the same problem.

2nd March 2008, 03:24 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Olikara, I remember in one book on Chinese weapons, an "elephant trunk sword" was something like a hook sword (tip recurved like an elephant's trunk). In the wikipedia, it sounds like the weapon may have been shaped like an elephant trunk, rather than wielded by an elephant. Can't tell for certain, but that's my guess. Katana, actually, that elephant flail gizmo makes more sense than the sword. Neat find! F