Elephant Sword

fearn · 25th February 2008, 02:16 AM

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

ariel · 25th February 2008, 03:23 AM

When I look at the 3rd from the bottom picture in the original listing ( the one copied by Ferguson), I am struck by the shadow under the blade: one can " see through" the blade/tang.
Also, look at the strained position of the thumb: tries to keep the blade in place?

I think it was broken before mailing.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2008, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

Very key perspective Fearn, and it is very true, it is not commonly known that the elephant is an entirely amazing animal, extremely sensitive and they indeed have ways of communicating far beyond human understanding. I too have followed this topic for some time, and there was a wonderful book written on this, I wish I had the title. Violence and combat indeed have deeply traumatic effect on both animals and humans, as I do know personally.
It is the unfortunate nature of our field of study that the weapons have a inherently dark purpose, and I prefer to focus on them as objectively as possible, as historic artifacts that are often imbued with symbolism and traditions of thier cultures.

I think your point about giving these tremendously powerful animals weapons is well placed, and I have to believe that in many cases, the forces who did this likely deeply regretted it.

All best regards,
Jim

katana · 29th February 2008, 11:50 PM

I thought it a good idea to look at this from a different ‘angle’….to see if it was ‘possible’ for an Elephant to wield such a sword with it’s trunk. All references I can find say ‘yes’ the trunk is a very complex organ and utilizing small sticks (held in the trunk) to itch themselves or to remove parasites is common ‘wild behaviour’.

“….It is fascinating to watch one of them pick up a stick with its trunk and use it to itch themselves. The dexterity they have with both their trunks and their feet is amazing….”

Also….

“….The nineteenth-century French anatomist Georges Cuvier estimated the number of muscles controlling the movements of the trunk at 40,000, a figure that was long accepted. By dissecting trunks, my colleagues and I have recently been able to investigate the workings of these organs, down to the microscopic level. We believe that what Cuvier called "muscles" are actually small subunits of muscles, or muscle fascicles. We painstakingly counted the tiny fascicles on carefully sectioned regions of an Asian elephant's trunk and arrived at an estimate of about 150,000 (148,198, to be exact) muscle fascicles for the entire trunk…..”

An interesting reference to the Elephant’s intelligence…
http://www.natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic5/elephant.htm

Also to illustrate the dexterity and intelligence of elephants…… http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=69

I am beginning to think that…

1. The painting ‘evidence’ suggests that there is possible ceremonial / religious symbolism associated with an Elephant brandishing a sword.

2. An Elephant could indeed hold such a sword with its trunk, however, I personally feel that if a ‘battle’ version was successful, they would be much more common.

3. I also feel that a ‘Battle Elephant’ during conflict would have enough to do, without having to coordinate its eyes and trunk to use the sword effectively. The Tusk type sword extensions and ‘spikes’ strapped to the trunk utilized the ‘natural’ attacking behaviour of the animal, the attached ‘weapons’ making it more efficient.

If there is definite evidence of real age with this ‘sword’ , perhaps it is indeed ceremonial or processional or symbolic.

Regards David.

Bill M · 1st March 2008, 12:31 AM

In speaking of using their trunks, I had a friend in the Marines who was stationed somewhere there were wild elephants. He said they were incredibly quiet when moving through heavy brush and jungle.

But that when they attacked, they sometimes pulled up a small tree with a trunk about 3 or 4 inches in diameter with their trunk and they would beat the ground with it when they charged.

A frightening aspect!

olikara · 1st March 2008, 01:54 PM

I visited Jaipur and Udaipur Palaces in Rajasthan, India in the early 80's. I can distinctly remember Rajput miniatures contemporary to the 17, 18 Centuries in the palace galleries, depicting elephants holding edged weapons in their trunks.

It is also accepted that at battle of Haldighati on June 18, 1576, the Rajput Chief Rana Pratap's beloved horse 'Chetak' had it's leg slashed by a sword attached to a rampaging Mogul elephant. This is common knowledge here.

I have absolutely no doubt at all, that War elephants in India carried edged weapons in their trunks, may not be all of them but certainly many of them.

katana · 1st March 2008, 03:42 PM

Stone's ..."A glossary...Arms and Armour.." mentions Elephant swords..that they were frequently mentioned by early travellers....."Ludovici di Varthema (1501-1568 ) says that they were 2 fathoms long and attached to the trunk.

Stone then states..." More reasonable accounts describe them as blades projecting from sockets slipped over the tusks...."

A 2 fathom sword would be just over 3.60 metres long ...thats 12 foot ...a sword the length of TWO men

. The thickness of the blade, to prevent excessive flexing would make the sword incredibly heavy and totally unuseable and I can certainly see why Stone is dubious about this reference.

With Olikara's information. the use of the 'trunk type' sword seems to have been abandoned in favour to the tusk type as any reference to them seem to be be hundreds of years ago.

Olikara you mentioned the slashing of the horse's leg by a sword 'attached' to an Elephant, could this have been the 'tusk type' or the bladed spikes strapped to the trunks...rather than a 'trunk held' sword?

I am surprised that if so many War Elephants were equiped with swords that there seems to be no examples that have survived

Regards David

fearn · 1st March 2008, 03:58 PM

Here's another possibility: elephants often do carry sticks of all sizes in their trunks, and some clever type may have decided to train them to carry a sword in their trunk in place of a stick.

I doubt that the elephant could be trained to effectively chop with that sword, but it might have been psychological weapon--the war elephant would be carrying a sword and waving it around and trumpeting, while the soldiers in the pagoda did something more effective with their weapons.

In that case, all an elephant sword would have to be is heavily built enough to survive being banged around by the elephant. Having it sharp might have even been an impediment.

As I noted above, training an elephant to kill people could be a really bad idea. It's easy enough for them to kill us without training, and trained killer elephants would be dangerous at all times, not just on the battlefield. That said, someone could put spikes on the tusks to make them better weapons, without training the elephant to do anything special with them.

Anyway, there is a problem with an elephant using a sword with its trunk. It would have a hard time getting enough leverage to cut with it. To see what problem is, take a kitchen knife (or a pocket knife), hold it only with your index finger curled around the hilt, and try cutting something. The elephant's trunk is more versatile than a single finger, but I think they've got the same problem.

1st March 2008, 01:54 PM	#6
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 102	Jaipur and Udaipur Palace Paintings I visited Jaipur and Udaipur Palaces in Rajasthan, India in the early 80's. I can distinctly remember Rajput miniatures contemporary to the 17, 18 Centuries in the palace galleries, depicting elephants holding edged weapons in their trunks. It is also accepted that at battle of Haldighati on June 18, 1576, the Rajput Chief Rana Pratap's beloved horse 'Chetak' had it's leg slashed by a sword attached to a rampaging Mogul elephant. This is common knowledge here. I have absolutely no doubt at all, that War elephants in India carried edged weapons in their trunks, may not be all of them but certainly many of them.

25th February 2008, 02:16 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone. I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can. This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants. My 0.02 cents, F

25th February 2008, 03:23 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	When I look at the 3rd from the bottom picture in the original listing ( the one copied by Ferguson), I am struck by the shadow under the blade: one can " see through" the blade/tang. Also, look at the strained position of the thumb: tries to keep the blade in place? I think it was broken before mailing.

29th February 2008, 11:50 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I thought it a good idea to look at this from a different ‘angle’….to see if it was ‘possible’ for an Elephant to wield such a sword with it’s trunk. All references I can find say ‘yes’ the trunk is a very complex organ and utilizing small sticks (held in the trunk) to itch themselves or to remove parasites is common ‘wild behaviour’. “….It is fascinating to watch one of them pick up a stick with its trunk and use it to itch themselves. The dexterity they have with both their trunks and their feet is amazing….” Also…. “….The nineteenth-century French anatomist Georges Cuvier estimated the number of muscles controlling the movements of the trunk at 40,000, a figure that was long accepted. By dissecting trunks, my colleagues and I have recently been able to investigate the workings of these organs, down to the microscopic level. We believe that what Cuvier called "muscles" are actually small subunits of muscles, or muscle fascicles. We painstakingly counted the tiny fascicles on carefully sectioned regions of an Asian elephant's trunk and arrived at an estimate of about 150,000 (148,198, to be exact) muscle fascicles for the entire trunk…..” An interesting reference to the Elephant’s intelligence… http://www.natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic5/elephant.htm Also to illustrate the dexterity and intelligence of elephants…… http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=69 I am beginning to think that… 1. The painting ‘evidence’ suggests that there is possible ceremonial / religious symbolism associated with an Elephant brandishing a sword. 2. An Elephant could indeed hold such a sword with its trunk, however, I personally feel that if a ‘battle’ version was successful, they would be much more common. 3. I also feel that a ‘Battle Elephant’ during conflict would have enough to do, without having to coordinate its eyes and trunk to use the sword effectively. The Tusk type sword extensions and ‘spikes’ strapped to the trunk utilized the ‘natural’ attacking behaviour of the animal, the attached ‘weapons’ making it more efficient. If there is definite evidence of real age with this ‘sword’ , perhaps it is indeed ceremonial or processional or symbolic. Regards David.

1st March 2008, 12:31 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	In speaking of using their trunks, I had a friend in the Marines who was stationed somewhere there were wild elephants. He said they were incredibly quiet when moving through heavy brush and jungle. But that when they attacked, they sometimes pulled up a small tree with a trunk about 3 or 4 inches in diameter with their trunk and they would beat the ground with it when they charged. A frightening aspect!

1st March 2008, 03:42 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Stone's ..."A glossary...Arms and Armour.." mentions Elephant swords..that they were frequently mentioned by early travellers....."Ludovici di Varthema (1501-1568 ) says that they were 2 fathoms long and attached to the trunk. Stone then states..." More reasonable accounts describe them as blades projecting from sockets slipped over the tusks...." A 2 fathom sword would be just over 3.60 metres long ...thats 12 foot ...a sword the length of TWO men . The thickness of the blade, to prevent excessive flexing would make the sword incredibly heavy and totally unuseable and I can certainly see why Stone is dubious about this reference. With Olikara's information. the use of the 'trunk type' sword seems to have been abandoned in favour to the tusk type as any reference to them seem to be be hundreds of years ago. Olikara you mentioned the slashing of the horse's leg by a sword 'attached' to an Elephant, could this have been the 'tusk type' or the bladed spikes strapped to the trunks...rather than a 'trunk held' sword? I am surprised that if so many War Elephants were equiped with swords that there seems to be no examples that have survived Regards David

1st March 2008, 03:58 PM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Here's another possibility: elephants often do carry sticks of all sizes in their trunks, and some clever type may have decided to train them to carry a sword in their trunk in place of a stick. I doubt that the elephant could be trained to effectively chop with that sword, but it might have been psychological weapon--the war elephant would be carrying a sword and waving it around and trumpeting, while the soldiers in the pagoda did something more effective with their weapons. In that case, all an elephant sword would have to be is heavily built enough to survive being banged around by the elephant. Having it sharp might have even been an impediment. As I noted above, training an elephant to kill people could be a really bad idea. It's easy enough for them to kill us without training, and trained killer elephants would be dangerous at all times, not just on the battlefield. That said, someone could put spikes on the tusks to make them better weapons, without training the elephant to do anything special with them. Anyway, there is a problem with an elephant using a sword with its trunk. It would have a hard time getting enough leverage to cut with it. To see what problem is, take a kitchen knife (or a pocket knife), hold it only with your index finger curled around the hilt, and try cutting something. The elephant's trunk is more versatile than a single finger, but I think they've got the same problem.