Elephant Sword

katana · 23rd February 2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

A horrific situation to be sure, but as for the feedback, starting May, 2008 sellers will no longer be able to leave negative feedback. At that point, buyers from sellers such as this one can leave negative feedback without fear of reprisal.

http://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/new.html

Of course, there are a lot of reasons a seller could legitimately leave negative feedback, but this change does fix the 'blackmail' problem...

Sadly, it won't help in this situation though, but there's always Karma...

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh,
interesting......but I have reservations....one sided feedback could cause problems for sellers. Buyers could threaten to leave negative to get a reduction in the price, etc ....so legit sellers could be open to abuse. Theoretically, a bidder could overbid to win the auction....then for a non legitimate reason could demand a partial refund, or threaten to leave negative feedback.
I think eBay should find a fairer independant service to assess claims of this nature. Also, I have noticed some 'power sellers' seem to operate fraudently (misrepresentation etc) and yet, even though there are continual complaints from buyers eBay seem reluctant to remove the 'power' status

eBay seem keen to leave the onus and responsibility of transactions to the buyer and seller ...saving them any legal or moral obligation. I feel with more and more eBay horror stories that, eBay should take more responsibillity......afterall it is in their interests as more and more eBayers are losing faith in the present 'set-up'.

What is also interesting is this on the listing.....

"Authenticity Guaranteed: Senatus Consulto fully guarantees all artifacts and coins to be genuine in every aspect. Any detail regarding an antiquity that is not known to us, will be noted as such. All artifacts and collectibles are accompanied by an invoice which also function as a Lifetime Certificate of Authenticity. Any item significantly deviating from the information provided by us regarding culture and dating, may be returned for a promp refund excluding shipping and handling."

.........perhaps it would be better just to send it back and swallow the postage charges ...however, how do you define 'significantly deviating ' ...personally I think it is ....authentic 'stated'... but I feel, overwhelmingly agreed (on this forum) to be 'not authentic'........ Two complete opposites....I think that 'significantly deviating'....don't you ?

Andrew · 24th February 2008, 04:40 PM

I, of course, agree with Mark's assessment of this weapon. Several similar swords have appeared on the market in recent years. The first was obtained by a member here and brought to Timonium a few years ago where we handled and discussed it. That example was rather fine with nice silver koft and an ivory handle.

I, too, doubt these are elephant swords. Rather, they are likely ceremonial, decorative or "bearing" swords. The plate the seller used is the only such example I have ever seen showing an elephant holding a sword in its trunk. As Mark noted, it is a fantastical scene and you can see other animorphic characters holding weapons. Frankly, the thought of an elephant wielding a gigantic sword is such a terrifying vision that, if it were accurate, I would expect we'd see it depicted in art much more frequently.

With regard to editorial comments about a seller, well, I see no problem if one simply reports accurate facts. The reader is free to draw whatever conclusion they like. This Website, and the Staff, are not responsible for the posts of any member: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Dajak · 24th February 2008, 06:16 PM

Nowledge and books are an must for the collector to avoid things like this.

Ebay not the way to build up an collection .

Pics off the weapon from different side s always very important.

Ben

fearn · 24th February 2008, 07:39 PM

Hi Bill,

Not that I'm an experienced collector, but I did get into an EBay spitting contest with a guy who sold me some stuff. Basically, it was a swivel for a nunchaku, and it never arrived. Eventually part of the flimsy envelope he mailed it in showed up, and it was pretty obvious why I never received the swivel. We both left negative comments for each other, and EBay's attempt to mediate ended when I pointed out that if the seller had simply charged more for shipping and sent the item in a box, the problem would never have occurred. He shut up too.

That said, I think there's an important point here. When getting something in shipping, 1) check the box for damage (not a bad idea to photograph it unopened). 2) open it carefully (perhaps more photos?). If the item is in pieces inside an undamaged box, then you can make a good case for misrepresentation. If the box is trashed along with the item inside, then the seller is at most responsible for bad choices in packaging and the shipping method, not for damage to the item itself.

While I hesitate to take the seller's side even partially, it is possible that the weapon did get trashed in shipment. When you have a long flimsy blade and heavy handle, it's possible to break it through rough handling. That doesn't exempt him from criticism (especially about the weapon's represented qualities), but I'm just as apt to suspect our postal service.

[Totally off-topic, but I recently moved 40 miles from my previous address. Not a problem, right? I'm still trying to get the mail forwarded, and yesterday I found out that they're still shipping some mail to my old address. This is fascinating, given that I'm also getting magazines at my new address, meaning that the address change got entered into their computer system, but was not implemented on the ground. That's the US postal service for you.]

F

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2008, 09:28 PM

I would like to digress from the subject matter on ebay seller issues and address the elephant sword topic which heads this thread.

I am inclined to agree with Andrew concerning the likely purpose of this piece which does seem like a processional or bearing type weapon, and in that sense may have some degree of authenticity. It is difficult to really tell how effectively such ceremonial weapons may have been fashioned for non combat purposes, and how skilled the furbisher might have been.

It seems that psychological warfare has often been key in the creation of many weapons that have had questionable application for actual combat use. The addition of the hooks on this blade, the use of bone (or tusk as it were) in adding to the formidable appearance of this interesting piece does indeed carry a degree of such possibility.

As David has linked that thread from last January, it was interesting to review some material I had found that suggests there were indeed instances of edged weapons applied to the trunk and tusks of elephants in warfare. In "By my Sword and Shield" (E.Jaiwent Paul, p.106) it is noted that elephant tusks were tipped with metal points.
In an excellent article by Thom Richardson and Donna Stevens in Royal Armouries Yearbook (Vol.I 1996, pp.101-103), "The Elephant Armour", it is noted that elephants were armed with spears and knives at the Battle of Panipat (1556). Other instances are also noted and reference is made to the example of a pair of these tusk swords from Clives collection (from Powis Castle) now in the holdings at Leeds. The only others are from a Mysore arsenal and were sold by Sothebys in 1991.

While I am unsure of the use of elephants in warfare in SE Asia, it would seem possible that there was awareness of the concept from India. In any case, it would certainly be worthy of further research, while recognizing a degree of plausibility in the possible use of this piece. I am not sure that the use of 'wallhanger' in the description was intended to dismiss the authenticity of the weapon, but suggesting its potential for display in a grouping of weapons from these regions.

All best regards,
Jim

fearn · 25th February 2008, 01:16 AM

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

ariel · 25th February 2008, 02:23 AM

When I look at the 3rd from the bottom picture in the original listing ( the one copied by Ferguson), I am struck by the shadow under the blade: one can " see through" the blade/tang.
Also, look at the strained position of the thumb: tries to keep the blade in place?

I think it was broken before mailing.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2008, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone.

I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can.

This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants.

My 0.02 cents,

F

Very key perspective Fearn, and it is very true, it is not commonly known that the elephant is an entirely amazing animal, extremely sensitive and they indeed have ways of communicating far beyond human understanding. I too have followed this topic for some time, and there was a wonderful book written on this, I wish I had the title. Violence and combat indeed have deeply traumatic effect on both animals and humans, as I do know personally.
It is the unfortunate nature of our field of study that the weapons have a inherently dark purpose, and I prefer to focus on them as objectively as possible, as historic artifacts that are often imbued with symbolism and traditions of thier cultures.

I think your point about giving these tremendously powerful animals weapons is well placed, and I have to believe that in many cases, the forces who did this likely deeply regretted it.

All best regards,
Jim

24th February 2008, 04:40 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I, of course, agree with Mark's assessment of this weapon. Several similar swords have appeared on the market in recent years. The first was obtained by a member here and brought to Timonium a few years ago where we handled and discussed it. That example was rather fine with nice silver koft and an ivory handle. I, too, doubt these are elephant swords. Rather, they are likely ceremonial, decorative or "bearing" swords. The plate the seller used is the only such example I have ever seen showing an elephant holding a sword in its trunk. As Mark noted, it is a fantastical scene and you can see other animorphic characters holding weapons. Frankly, the thought of an elephant wielding a gigantic sword is such a terrifying vision that, if it were accurate, I would expect we'd see it depicted in art much more frequently. With regard to editorial comments about a seller, well, I see no problem if one simply reports accurate facts. The reader is free to draw whatever conclusion they like. This Website, and the Staff, are not responsible for the posts of any member: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

24th February 2008, 06:16 PM	#3
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Nowledge and books are an must for the collector to avoid things like this. Ebay not the way to build up an collection . Pics off the weapon from different side s always very important. Ben

24th February 2008, 07:39 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Bill, Not that I'm an experienced collector, but I did get into an EBay spitting contest with a guy who sold me some stuff. Basically, it was a swivel for a nunchaku, and it never arrived. Eventually part of the flimsy envelope he mailed it in showed up, and it was pretty obvious why I never received the swivel. We both left negative comments for each other, and EBay's attempt to mediate ended when I pointed out that if the seller had simply charged more for shipping and sent the item in a box, the problem would never have occurred. He shut up too. That said, I think there's an important point here. When getting something in shipping, 1) check the box for damage (not a bad idea to photograph it unopened). 2) open it carefully (perhaps more photos?). If the item is in pieces inside an undamaged box, then you can make a good case for misrepresentation. If the box is trashed along with the item inside, then the seller is at most responsible for bad choices in packaging and the shipping method, not for damage to the item itself. While I hesitate to take the seller's side even partially, it is possible that the weapon did get trashed in shipment. When you have a long flimsy blade and heavy handle, it's possible to break it through rough handling. That doesn't exempt him from criticism (especially about the weapon's represented qualities), but I'm just as apt to suspect our postal service. [Totally off-topic, but I recently moved 40 miles from my previous address. Not a problem, right? I'm still trying to get the mail forwarded, and yesterday I found out that they're still shipping some mail to my old address. This is fascinating, given that I'm also getting magazines at my new address, meaning that the address change got entered into their computer system, but was not implemented on the ground. That's the US postal service for you.] F

24th February 2008, 09:28 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I would like to digress from the subject matter on ebay seller issues and address the elephant sword topic which heads this thread. I am inclined to agree with Andrew concerning the likely purpose of this piece which does seem like a processional or bearing type weapon, and in that sense may have some degree of authenticity. It is difficult to really tell how effectively such ceremonial weapons may have been fashioned for non combat purposes, and how skilled the furbisher might have been. It seems that psychological warfare has often been key in the creation of many weapons that have had questionable application for actual combat use. The addition of the hooks on this blade, the use of bone (or tusk as it were) in adding to the formidable appearance of this interesting piece does indeed carry a degree of such possibility. As David has linked that thread from last January, it was interesting to review some material I had found that suggests there were indeed instances of edged weapons applied to the trunk and tusks of elephants in warfare. In "By my Sword and Shield" (E.Jaiwent Paul, p.106) it is noted that elephant tusks were tipped with metal points. In an excellent article by Thom Richardson and Donna Stevens in Royal Armouries Yearbook (Vol.I 1996, pp.101-103), "The Elephant Armour", it is noted that elephants were armed with spears and knives at the Battle of Panipat (1556). Other instances are also noted and reference is made to the example of a pair of these tusk swords from Clives collection (from Powis Castle) now in the holdings at Leeds. The only others are from a Mysore arsenal and were sold by Sothebys in 1991. While I am unsure of the use of elephants in warfare in SE Asia, it would seem possible that there was awareness of the concept from India. In any case, it would certainly be worthy of further research, while recognizing a degree of plausibility in the possible use of this piece. I am not sure that the use of 'wallhanger' in the description was intended to dismiss the authenticity of the weapon, but suggesting its potential for display in a grouping of weapons from these regions. All best regards, Jim

25th February 2008, 01:16 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, Interesting coincidence: while reading your last posting, I was listening to an extended interview with an elephant researcher on National Public Radio. The main thrust of the interview was about the discovery of infrasonic communications and complex social structure in elephants (which, in addition to being huge, are also quite intelligent,very social, and have very good memories). They also mentioned current problems in Africa, where the decimation of herds has led to lone, young male elephants that deliberately attack villages nearby. Apparently these "rogues" have lost most of their family and are lashing out at humans, perhaps in revenge, perhaps because the elders who would have taught and disciplined them are gone. I'm not going on an animal rights kick, but in light of what we now know about them, I'm really starting to wonder about the wisdom of giving elephants weapons and taking them into war. The problem is, you've got to live with the veteran elephants afterwards, and elephants can be traumatized by violence, as much as soldiers can. This might explain why elephant swords and similar weapons are so rare. As I found out, it's easier to contemplate them as rare artifacts when you're not listening to what violence does to elephants. My 0.02 cents, F

25th February 2008, 02:23 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	When I look at the 3rd from the bottom picture in the original listing ( the one copied by Ferguson), I am struck by the shadow under the blade: one can " see through" the blade/tang. Also, look at the strained position of the thumb: tries to keep the blade in place? I think it was broken before mailing.