Elephant Sword

Bill M · 23rd February 2008, 02:31 PM

What I would like is for the seller to admit this is a wall hanger, refund the rest of my money and let me return this thing.

I also feel that in this case, since it is an obvious wall hanger and was misrepresented, or at least silent to the blade thickness, that the seller should also refund shipping both ways.

This seller has had a good reputation in the past. I don't understand how this happened.

Montino Bourbon · 23rd February 2008, 02:59 PM

The dealer does say...

"A SPECTACULAR WALLHANGER"

and in the earlier description...

"Material: Steel, bone & brass"

Later, he mentions "Elephant tusk"...

so which is it? It definitely looks like bone to me- and if an elephant tried to swing that thing around, with the thinness of the tang there's no doubt that it would break. Perhaps a ceremonial piece?

Pretty cool looking, though... but if you're looking for functionality and 'elephant tusk' I would definitely ask for my money back.

Sikh_soldier · 23rd February 2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

The dealer does say...

"A SPECTACULAR WALLHANGER"
.

He also stated it dates: 1700-1800
and the values at:Est.: $1500-2000

I feel bad for you Bill

, Collecting is great fun.

, but ethical values in dealers are as hard to find as.....an authentic elephant sword!

Don't get mad get EVEN!

negative feedback all the way!

and what goes around comes around, hopefully a beautiful Wootz steel sword originally owned by a King will find its way to you for under $100

best of luck next time

katana · 23rd February 2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I also feel that in this case, since it is an obvious wall hanger and was misrepresented, or at least silent to the blade thickness, that the seller should also refund shipping both ways.

Hi Bill,
surely this was misrepresented in more ways......stating that bone was ivory ...is the main one IMHO ....any piece that has a substantial hilt composing of Elephant Ivory would almost certainly be a 'quality item'....
Secondly, anyone who sells, handles or buys bladed weapons would DEFINATELY know such a puny blade would not be functional. (and I quote....."A fearsome blade" )Certainly the blade at the forte should be relatively thick to strenghen the area of the blade that undergoes extreme stresses when striking the target ....this 'sword' did not.

.
I have seen a number of eBay sellers who originally sold quality items ....now selling 'dross' ...misrepresenting many of their items.....getting over inflated prices for them....and getting away with it. I think the increasing interest in Ethnographic items, and some buyers lack of knowledge has made this situation worse.

Even if you place negative feedback....it is likely 'he' will do the same for you with some 'made up' excuse. A sort of 'feedback blackmail'.

Ebay is not the great marketplace it used to be......its a real shame.

All the best

David

Lew · 23rd February 2008, 04:04 PM

As far as real elephant swords go I saw something on Discovery channel or history channel two months ago about the Mughals and the elephants were fitted on there tusks with some type nasty sword object I really can't see a sword being swung by the trunk in that way.

http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Empire.../dp/B000H5U5SU

Lew

Btw

The seller states.

According to an expert in the SE arms & armor this is an elephants sword made for an elephant.

So in this statement he has laid claim to it's authenticity.

katana · 23rd February 2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

As far as real elephant swords go I saw something on Discovery channel or history channel two months ago about the Mughals and the elephants were fitted on there tusks with some type nasty sword object I really can't see a sword being swung by the trunk in that way.

Lew

Btw

The seller states.

According to an expert in the SE arms & armor this is an elephants sword made for an elephant.

So in this statement he has laid claim to it's authenticity.

Hi Lew,
I tend to agree, whilst researching the use of Elephants in Warfare I never found a reference to a 'trunk wielded' sword .....spikes strapped to the trunk, sometimes. More info about the tusk 'swords' (and pic) on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Ceylon+spear

Regards David

Rick · 23rd February 2008, 05:36 PM

Bill , was there no postal insurance on this sword ?

I would assume that the piece having arrived broken would be considered a total loss .

Mark · 23rd February 2008, 07:00 PM

I am sorry to say, this is almost certainly a fake. I have no idea what "Siamese history" is being referred to in the description, but having done more than a little research on Siamese history, and in particular martial history, I have never seen a reference to such a sword. The illustration is of a scene from the life of Gautama, the attack of Mara and his demonic hordes attempting to prevent Gautama attaining enlightenment. These are invariably very fanciful in depicting the demonic side, including weapons used, so I don't place much credence in the painting as reflecting anything historical.

To my eye there are a number of big red flags in the photos and description, including the close-up of the break, the poor execution of the fitting decoration, an evident (to me at least) lack of any third-dimension geometry (the blade looks flat, in other words) and the very rough execution of the blade. They hardly shout "spectacular," or "authentic" to me - I am immediately suspicious of such hyped language, anyway. Though perhaps in other contexts a blade roughly cut from a flat piece of steel would be a genuine article of historical manufacture, that was not something that was done in SEA until late in the last century.

If they truly guarantee the authenticity of everything they sell, and provide a certificate to that effect, you should have a legitimate claim to a refund, as the blade on in-hand inspection clearly is not an historical item and they have not provided the certificate. I am curious to know the identity of the "expert in SEA arms & armor," but I expect that if you challenge the seller to name him/her all you will get is evasion.

By the way, feel free to cite me as a recognized expert who says it is junk.

Mark · 23rd February 2008, 07:06 PM

By the way, putting on my moderator hat, please remember that criticisms here must be limited to the item sold, and the seller should not be named or directly attacked. Of course, we are pretty tolerant of direct accusations of dishonest against a seller if there is blatant fraud or a crime involved, and putting the link to the auction is, of course, fine so long as the auction has ended (people can take what they will from the information they get by following the link). But, the basic rule of the forum is to knock the sale, not the seller.

Thank you.

Mark
Vikingsword Staff

CourseEight · 23rd February 2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Even if you place negative feedback....it is likely 'he' will do the same for you with some 'made up' excuse. A sort of 'feedback blackmail'.

A horrific situation to be sure, but as for the feedback, starting May, 2008 sellers will no longer be able to leave negative feedback. At that point, buyers from sellers such as this one can leave negative feedback without fear of reprisal.

http://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/new.html

Of course, there are a lot of reasons a seller could legitimately leave negative feedback, but this change does fix the 'blackmail' problem...

Sadly, it won't help in this situation though, but there's always Karma...

--Radleigh

katana · 23rd February 2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

A horrific situation to be sure, but as for the feedback, starting May, 2008 sellers will no longer be able to leave negative feedback. At that point, buyers from sellers such as this one can leave negative feedback without fear of reprisal.

http://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/new.html

Of course, there are a lot of reasons a seller could legitimately leave negative feedback, but this change does fix the 'blackmail' problem...

Sadly, it won't help in this situation though, but there's always Karma...

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh,
interesting......but I have reservations....one sided feedback could cause problems for sellers. Buyers could threaten to leave negative to get a reduction in the price, etc ....so legit sellers could be open to abuse. Theoretically, a bidder could overbid to win the auction....then for a non legitimate reason could demand a partial refund, or threaten to leave negative feedback.
I think eBay should find a fairer independant service to assess claims of this nature. Also, I have noticed some 'power sellers' seem to operate fraudently (misrepresentation etc) and yet, even though there are continual complaints from buyers eBay seem reluctant to remove the 'power' status

eBay seem keen to leave the onus and responsibility of transactions to the buyer and seller ...saving them any legal or moral obligation. I feel with more and more eBay horror stories that, eBay should take more responsibillity......afterall it is in their interests as more and more eBayers are losing faith in the present 'set-up'.

What is also interesting is this on the listing.....

"Authenticity Guaranteed: Senatus Consulto fully guarantees all artifacts and coins to be genuine in every aspect. Any detail regarding an antiquity that is not known to us, will be noted as such. All artifacts and collectibles are accompanied by an invoice which also function as a Lifetime Certificate of Authenticity. Any item significantly deviating from the information provided by us regarding culture and dating, may be returned for a promp refund excluding shipping and handling."

.........perhaps it would be better just to send it back and swallow the postage charges ...however, how do you define 'significantly deviating ' ...personally I think it is ....authentic 'stated'... but I feel, overwhelmingly agreed (on this forum) to be 'not authentic'........ Two complete opposites....I think that 'significantly deviating'....don't you ?

Andrew · 24th February 2008, 04:40 PM

I, of course, agree with Mark's assessment of this weapon. Several similar swords have appeared on the market in recent years. The first was obtained by a member here and brought to Timonium a few years ago where we handled and discussed it. That example was rather fine with nice silver koft and an ivory handle.

I, too, doubt these are elephant swords. Rather, they are likely ceremonial, decorative or "bearing" swords. The plate the seller used is the only such example I have ever seen showing an elephant holding a sword in its trunk. As Mark noted, it is a fantastical scene and you can see other animorphic characters holding weapons. Frankly, the thought of an elephant wielding a gigantic sword is such a terrifying vision that, if it were accurate, I would expect we'd see it depicted in art much more frequently.

With regard to editorial comments about a seller, well, I see no problem if one simply reports accurate facts. The reader is free to draw whatever conclusion they like. This Website, and the Staff, are not responsible for the posts of any member: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Dajak · 24th February 2008, 06:16 PM

Nowledge and books are an must for the collector to avoid things like this.

Ebay not the way to build up an collection .

Pics off the weapon from different side s always very important.

Ben

fearn · 24th February 2008, 07:39 PM

Hi Bill,

Not that I'm an experienced collector, but I did get into an EBay spitting contest with a guy who sold me some stuff. Basically, it was a swivel for a nunchaku, and it never arrived. Eventually part of the flimsy envelope he mailed it in showed up, and it was pretty obvious why I never received the swivel. We both left negative comments for each other, and EBay's attempt to mediate ended when I pointed out that if the seller had simply charged more for shipping and sent the item in a box, the problem would never have occurred. He shut up too.

That said, I think there's an important point here. When getting something in shipping, 1) check the box for damage (not a bad idea to photograph it unopened). 2) open it carefully (perhaps more photos?). If the item is in pieces inside an undamaged box, then you can make a good case for misrepresentation. If the box is trashed along with the item inside, then the seller is at most responsible for bad choices in packaging and the shipping method, not for damage to the item itself.

While I hesitate to take the seller's side even partially, it is possible that the weapon did get trashed in shipment. When you have a long flimsy blade and heavy handle, it's possible to break it through rough handling. That doesn't exempt him from criticism (especially about the weapon's represented qualities), but I'm just as apt to suspect our postal service.

[Totally off-topic, but I recently moved 40 miles from my previous address. Not a problem, right? I'm still trying to get the mail forwarded, and yesterday I found out that they're still shipping some mail to my old address. This is fascinating, given that I'm also getting magazines at my new address, meaning that the address change got entered into their computer system, but was not implemented on the ground. That's the US postal service for you.]

F

23rd February 2008, 02:31 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	What I would like is for the seller to admit this is a wall hanger, refund the rest of my money and let me return this thing. I also feel that in this case, since it is an obvious wall hanger and was misrepresented, or at least silent to the blade thickness, that the seller should also refund shipping both ways. This seller has had a good reputation in the past. I don't understand how this happened.

23rd February 2008, 02:59 PM	#2
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	The dealer does say... "A SPECTACULAR WALLHANGER" and in the earlier description... "Material: Steel, bone & brass" Later, he mentions "Elephant tusk"... so which is it? It definitely looks like bone to me- and if an elephant tried to swing that thing around, with the thinness of the tang there's no doubt that it would break. Perhaps a ceremonial piece? Pretty cool looking, though... but if you're looking for functionality and 'elephant tusk' I would definitely ask for my money back.

23rd February 2008, 04:04 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	As far as real elephant swords go I saw something on Discovery channel or history channel two months ago about the Mughals and the elephants were fitted on there tusks with some type nasty sword object I really can't see a sword being swung by the trunk in that way. http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Empire.../dp/B000H5U5SU Lew Btw The seller states. According to an expert in the SE arms & armor this is an elephants sword made for an elephant. So in this statement he has laid claim to it's authenticity.

23rd February 2008, 05:36 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Bill , was there no postal insurance on this sword ? I would assume that the piece having arrived broken would be considered a total loss .

23rd February 2008, 07:00 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I am sorry to say, this is almost certainly a fake. I have no idea what "Siamese history" is being referred to in the description, but having done more than a little research on Siamese history, and in particular martial history, I have never seen a reference to such a sword. The illustration is of a scene from the life of Gautama, the attack of Mara and his demonic hordes attempting to prevent Gautama attaining enlightenment. These are invariably very fanciful in depicting the demonic side, including weapons used, so I don't place much credence in the painting as reflecting anything historical. To my eye there are a number of big red flags in the photos and description, including the close-up of the break, the poor execution of the fitting decoration, an evident (to me at least) lack of any third-dimension geometry (the blade looks flat, in other words) and the very rough execution of the blade. They hardly shout "spectacular," or "authentic" to me - I am immediately suspicious of such hyped language, anyway. Though perhaps in other contexts a blade roughly cut from a flat piece of steel would be a genuine article of historical manufacture, that was not something that was done in SEA until late in the last century. If they truly guarantee the authenticity of everything they sell, and provide a certificate to that effect, you should have a legitimate claim to a refund, as the blade on in-hand inspection clearly is not an historical item and they have not provided the certificate. I am curious to know the identity of the "expert in SEA arms & armor," but I expect that if you challenge the seller to name him/her all you will get is evasion. By the way, feel free to cite me as a recognized expert who says it is junk.

23rd February 2008, 07:06 PM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	By the way, putting on my moderator hat, please remember that criticisms here must be limited to the item sold, and the seller should not be named or directly attacked. Of course, we are pretty tolerant of direct accusations of dishonest against a seller if there is blatant fraud or a crime involved, and putting the link to the auction is, of course, fine so long as the auction has ended (people can take what they will from the information they get by following the link). But, the basic rule of the forum is to knock the sale, not the seller. Thank you. Mark Vikingsword Staff

24th February 2008, 04:40 PM	#12
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I, of course, agree with Mark's assessment of this weapon. Several similar swords have appeared on the market in recent years. The first was obtained by a member here and brought to Timonium a few years ago where we handled and discussed it. That example was rather fine with nice silver koft and an ivory handle. I, too, doubt these are elephant swords. Rather, they are likely ceremonial, decorative or "bearing" swords. The plate the seller used is the only such example I have ever seen showing an elephant holding a sword in its trunk. As Mark noted, it is a fantastical scene and you can see other animorphic characters holding weapons. Frankly, the thought of an elephant wielding a gigantic sword is such a terrifying vision that, if it were accurate, I would expect we'd see it depicted in art much more frequently. With regard to editorial comments about a seller, well, I see no problem if one simply reports accurate facts. The reader is free to draw whatever conclusion they like. This Website, and the Staff, are not responsible for the posts of any member: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

24th February 2008, 06:16 PM	#13
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Nowledge and books are an must for the collector to avoid things like this. Ebay not the way to build up an collection . Pics off the weapon from different side s always very important. Ben

24th February 2008, 07:39 PM	#14
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Bill, Not that I'm an experienced collector, but I did get into an EBay spitting contest with a guy who sold me some stuff. Basically, it was a swivel for a nunchaku, and it never arrived. Eventually part of the flimsy envelope he mailed it in showed up, and it was pretty obvious why I never received the swivel. We both left negative comments for each other, and EBay's attempt to mediate ended when I pointed out that if the seller had simply charged more for shipping and sent the item in a box, the problem would never have occurred. He shut up too. That said, I think there's an important point here. When getting something in shipping, 1) check the box for damage (not a bad idea to photograph it unopened). 2) open it carefully (perhaps more photos?). If the item is in pieces inside an undamaged box, then you can make a good case for misrepresentation. If the box is trashed along with the item inside, then the seller is at most responsible for bad choices in packaging and the shipping method, not for damage to the item itself. While I hesitate to take the seller's side even partially, it is possible that the weapon did get trashed in shipment. When you have a long flimsy blade and heavy handle, it's possible to break it through rough handling. That doesn't exempt him from criticism (especially about the weapon's represented qualities), but I'm just as apt to suspect our postal service. [Totally off-topic, but I recently moved 40 miles from my previous address. Not a problem, right? I'm still trying to get the mail forwarded, and yesterday I found out that they're still shipping some mail to my old address. This is fascinating, given that I'm also getting magazines at my new address, meaning that the address change got entered into their computer system, but was not implemented on the ground. That's the US postal service for you.] F