Scottish basket hilts and edged weapons

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2008, 01:44 PM

Thank you very much Chris! and that is an excellent suggestion on adding the stats on weapons posted. What is great about these type of discussions focused on a particular topic is that we can all pool resources, share the weapons owned privately, as well as seen in museums, and thereby all learn together. Thank you for the kind words, and the very helpful suggestion.

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 23rd February 2008, 01:22 AM

Hi Jim,
Lets get through the basics and see if the forum can come up with an answer (ie. I don't have an answer but will keep looking

).

Hi Chris,
Hopefully I can dig out the swords and get a few answers for you.

All the Best
Jeff

Jeff D · 23rd February 2008, 01:25 AM

The next group are the 'Thin-barred simple hilts'. There appears to be some controversy whether these developed from the Twysden hilts or in parallel with them from thin bared precursors.
This type evolved into the hilt types we are more familiar with. Using images from Mazansky you can see the evolution. 1 the earlest and 7 the latest.

(mods is it possible to organize the pictures in sequence as it makes more sense that way/ thanks /Jeff)

Jeff D · 23rd February 2008, 07:45 PM

This Brings us to the 18-19th century with the 'Conventional hilts'. The garrison towns of Glasgow and Stirling became the major centers of manufacturing.
Prior to 1745 they supplied both Hanoverian and jacobite factions, after they supplied the Highland regiments and British cavalry. Most of the hilts were made in a cottage industry fashion being produced in small shops in the areas. A few big names are associated with each area as well.

Glasgow Hilts;
The family most associated with these are the Simpsons (no relation to Bart, Jessica or OJ). Quoting Mazansky ' The bars are of flattened rectangular section. They have deep flutes flanked by engraved line on each side' . He goes on in much more detail about the shields and guards as well. Below is 3 Glasgow hilts, the flat grooved bars are clearly seen. The picture with 6 hilts is from Whitelaw all signed Glasgow makers. note that Fig 3. shows that the rule doesn't always hold.

Jeff D · 23rd February 2008, 09:02 PM

Stirling hilts;

The Allan family is the most famous hilt makers from this area. Unlike the Glasgow hilts these tend to be more varied 'artistic'. The bars are round to flattened but lack the grooves.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2008, 12:03 AM

Thanks very much Jeff! These illustrations and your explanations help a lot. So the 'Glasgow' hilts seem to carry more traditional form, and the one of the key features would be the fluted and incribed bars.
The Stirling is as you note, more rounded bars and artistic free form. As you note these were 'garrison' towns which of course were British occupied and it seems Stirling was closer to the English border. Possibly more of the freeform resulted with more military oriented styling for instance the blank saltire plates and so on. It seems mid 18th century there were more grid type forms and functionally developed examples that evolved in Birmingham, in England,along with other horsemans swords.

By the 1770's I think of the regimental pattern that had the tall conical pommel from Birmingham, I think the suppliers were Drury and Jeffries.

All the best,
Jim

23rd February 2008, 01:25 AM	#3
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	The next group are the 'Thin-barred simple hilts'. There appears to be some controversy whether these developed from the Twysden hilts or in parallel with them from thin bared precursors. This type evolved into the hilt types we are more familiar with. Using images from Mazansky you can see the evolution. 1 the earlest and 7 the latest. (mods is it possible to organize the pictures in sequence as it makes more sense that way/ thanks /Jeff) Attached Images Last edited by Jeff D; 23rd February 2008 at 08:23 PM.

23rd February 2008, 07:45 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	This Brings us to the 18-19th century with the 'Conventional hilts'. The garrison towns of Glasgow and Stirling became the major centers of manufacturing. Prior to 1745 they supplied both Hanoverian and jacobite factions, after they supplied the Highland regiments and British cavalry. Most of the hilts were made in a cottage industry fashion being produced in small shops in the areas. A few big names are associated with each area as well. Glasgow Hilts; The family most associated with these are the Simpsons (no relation to Bart, Jessica or OJ). Quoting Mazansky ' The bars are of flattened rectangular section. They have deep flutes flanked by engraved line on each side' . He goes on in much more detail about the shields and guards as well. Below is 3 Glasgow hilts, the flat grooved bars are clearly seen. The picture with 6 hilts is from Whitelaw all signed Glasgow makers. note that Fig 3. shows that the rule doesn't always hold. Attached Images

23rd February 2008, 09:02 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Stirling hilts; The Allan family is the most famous hilt makers from this area. Unlike the Glasgow hilts these tend to be more varied 'artistic'. The bars are round to flattened but lack the grooves. Attached Images

22nd February 2008, 01:44 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you very much Chris! and that is an excellent suggestion on adding the stats on weapons posted. What is great about these type of discussions focused on a particular topic is that we can all pool resources, share the weapons owned privately, as well as seen in museums, and thereby all learn together. Thank you for the kind words, and the very helpful suggestion. All the best, Jim

23rd February 2008, 01:22 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, Lets get through the basics and see if the forum can come up with an answer (ie. I don't have an answer but will keep looking ). Hi Chris, Hopefully I can dig out the swords and get a few answers for you. All the Best Jeff

25th February 2008, 12:03 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Jeff! These illustrations and your explanations help a lot. So the 'Glasgow' hilts seem to carry more traditional form, and the one of the key features would be the fluted and incribed bars. The Stirling is as you note, more rounded bars and artistic free form. As you note these were 'garrison' towns which of course were British occupied and it seems Stirling was closer to the English border. Possibly more of the freeform resulted with more military oriented styling for instance the blank saltire plates and so on. It seems mid 18th century there were more grid type forms and functionally developed examples that evolved in Birmingham, in England,along with other horsemans swords. By the 1770's I think of the regimental pattern that had the tall conical pommel from Birmingham, I think the suppliers were Drury and Jeffries. All the best, Jim