"Mad Mahdi" Dagger

Conogre · 21st March 2005, 01:25 PM

Three things pop immediately to mind, one being that many in the Sudan don't wear "belts" as such , but rather a wound sash......of what use is a "belt loop" to a person wearing a sash?
Likewise, many are just tucked into the top of boots, with the third instance being a seperate "frog" such as the turn of the century Philippine knife that I just aquired from Vern, where the "loop" is a seperate piece of leather through which the scabbard/sheath proper slides in order to be carried on a western style belt.
Mike

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2005, 06:58 PM

Hi Aurangzeb,
Outstanding find! What you have there certainly does appear to be a dagger from the 'Mahdiyya' (1881-1898) in the Sudan. I should point out though that I don't think in this particular instance the Mahdi was ever termed 'mad'

I think the term considered was possibly from that used to describe the 'Mad Mullah of Somaliland' Sheikh Sayyid Muhammed c.1903, in events very similar to the the Mahdist revolt and British entanglement in Egyptian affairs. At this time of high Imperial attitudes though,the term may have been applied in singular instance, as it was often used to describe the religiously based and intense opposition of any individual to British rule.

The British writers of the period tended to interpolate many narratives of colonial events with slang and terminology often derisively toward the 'savages' . For example the term 'dervishes' was typically used to describe the native warriors, and was actually a term which came from more common use in India (Pers. darvish=religious mendicant), used colloquially by the British military from the Raj there. It should be noted that the Turkish derivation of the word, and certainly found in Egypt, meant loosely beggar. Although the term dervish was once applied to themselves, the Mahdi opposed its use and applied the term 'ansar' (from the Koran =helper). He actually installed strict punishment for those who insisted on the use of the formerly applied 'dervish'. The term 'fuzzy-wuzzy' was directed to the much feared Hadendowa tribal swordsmen.
While these slang terms were used often colloquially and in some perspective, derisively for the many groups of Mahdist forces, the poems by Kipling reflect the general consensus of British forces,that native warriors were actually not only feared but highly respected for thier courage in battle.

This dagger is very similar to an example associated with weapons from Dongola province in northern Sudan, near the 3rd cataract, and interestingly is the region that the Mahdi himself, Mohammed Ahmed ibn el-Sayyed Abdullah , was born. The simple elongated hilt form is similar to the broad hilt 'jambia' daggers of Mughal India (Pant. p.161, fig.464) and it is interesting to note that other Indian weapon forms also appeared in the Sudan in this period, and were accordingly decorated with 'thuluth' motif.

As has been noted , this is clearly not the typical arm dagger often worn by Hadendowa and other tribal warriors, so actually has little to do with 'fuzzy wuzzies

but seems actually to belong to tribal groups farther north.

I very much like the way you have displayed the dagger with associated Sudanese coinage and currency, extremely impressive and really enhances the historic nuances of the piece. Actually this recalls the many times we have relied on nusimatic evidence in the identification of many ethnographic weapons. Nicely done!

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 21st March 2005, 07:09 PM

The British were always immensely proud of their ability to stay the ground and keep their ranks: this was a survival requirement sine qua non, otherwise the disorganised infantry unit became an easy prey to the attacking cavalry. The most famous example of it was the "Thin Red Line" of the Scotch infantry that withstood the Russian cavalry charge at Balaclava (by the way, on the very same day that the famous Charge of the Light Brigade took place).
Well, Sudanese Mahdists bear the distinction of dispensing with the tradition an breaking "the British Square". Not a mean achievement!

Conogre · 21st March 2005, 07:21 PM

Once again, Jim comes to the rescue with a collection of little known bits of information....where DO you find these jems?
Since you brought up the Hadendowa, you've opened the door to several questions and a couple of comments.
As I've stated before, my first sword was a kaskara brought back to me from Eritrea of a simple form and with a black "fuzzy" ball attached to the hilt, which, I believe, is also associated with the Mahdi?
Likewise, I recently aquired a dagger usually associated with Haddendoa, with an exagerated, almost X-shaped hilt and a tooled leather sheath, this specimen one with the J-shaped blade, which made me realize that I don't think that I've ever seen a Haddendoa dagger with a loop of any kind.
Is the common dress from this area primarily arabic style robes, such as those worn by the Bedouins and Tauregs?
If the question sounds simplistic, excuse me, but my mind just hit a nick in the record that almost knocked "African" right out of the picture! **knife**
From discussions with my son, I was advised that the majority of the area is now desert, which he found truly ironic as the native names for parts of the country are still used by tribesmen, which translates as "black jungle" and like ilk.
Spears from that area, he said, were almost impossible to find intact as the majority of the shafts have long since been cannibalized for cooking fires, with the only other source being dried camel and donkey dung, which probably makes it fortunate that the predominate religion is now musim.....I'm fairly sure smoked pork ribs would have a distinct flavor, eh?
How's that for a can of worms?
By the way, that IS a beautiful dagger Mark, and a distinct variation from the form more commonly seen...aren't those known as "Waldmen daggers"? **grin**
Mike

Jim McDougall · 22nd March 2005, 03:02 AM

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the kind comment!! All this stuff is packed in the cobwebs in my skull!!

Actually the Sudan is huge, one of the largest countries of Africa, and in the north it is mostly stony, arid desert. The southern regions are mostly scrub, swamp and morasses, the sudd. It would be difficult to begin to describe the traditional dress of the tribal units in the major groups, but it seems most wear varying forms of robes or jibba's, with groups toward Red Sea regions often basically wearing loin covering garments.

The Hadendoa are a large sub-tribe of the Beja (bay-za) who inhabit Red Sea regions from Sudan and into Eritrea. It is interesting to note that the kaskara (termed locally sa'if only, the term kaskara is virtually unknown in the regions where they are used) is well known in Eritrea and into Somalia where carried by the Afar and Danakil. A friend who is Beja in discussions concerning the X-hilt daggers noted to me that the rather hooked blade examples of these were actually not Hadendoa, but either Afar or Danakil. The distinctive hilts are of course the same as Hadendoa.

The black tassle or tuft you have noted on your kaskara is something that seems to occur on examples especially from Darfur regions. I am uncertain whether the color varies or the specific significance of these, however it would seem the color black was especially auspicious and associated with the black color he assigned to himself and his number one khalif.

Ariel,
It was great to meet you in Timonium! I really enjoyed our talk ,and you are quite keen on military history!! How appropriate it is to mention here 'The Thin Red Line' ...the brilliant Highlanders of the 93rd Regiment at Balaclava. I sense indescribable pride recalling the courage of these outstanding warriors,
"There is no retreat from here men! You must die where you stand!"
Sir Colin Campbell, commander
The response was 'ay ay Sir Colin, needs be we'll do that!'

The volleys and steadfastness of the Highlanders unnerved the huge numbers of Russian cavalry, whose order failed and ended in retreat.

As you have shown, British infantry formations were remarkably formidable, and this illustrates clearly the incredible achievement of these native warriors in accomplishing the breaking of these 'squares'.

All the best,
Jim

Andrew · 22nd March 2005, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...How appropriate it is to mention here 'The Thin Red Line' ...the brilliant Highlanders of the 93rd Regiment at Balaclava. I sense indescribable pride recalling the courage of these couragous warriors,
"There is no retreat from here men! You must die where you stand!"
Sir Colin Campbell, commander
The response was 'ay ay Sir Colin, needs be we'll do that!'

The volleys and steadfastness of the Highlanders unnerved the huge numbers of Russian cavalry, whose order failed and ended in retreat.
...

Who'd have thought Jim would submit to nationalistic pride!?

It was great seeing you this weekend, my friend.

Jim McDougall · 23rd March 2005, 12:09 AM

Hi Andrew!
Ya got me there!!!All it takes is a little Drambuie and out comes the trusty basket hilt! Oops gotta be careful....last time I just about took out my ceiling fan!!

It was fun seeing you too,
Jim

Aurangzeb · 23rd March 2005, 03:14 AM

Hi all!!

Thanks for all the help on my Sudanese dagger.I personally think the dagger might have even have been tuked in the sash of the warrior.The coins depicted with the dagger are only a small fraction of my Islamic/Sudanese coin collection.I do have several questions:First,are there any recommended books on sudanese weapons and the British-Sudanese war?Second,this question may seem dumb but,Why is Sudan sometimes called"The Sudan" instead of just"Sudan".Also the tip of the dagger protrudes from the sheath slightly,chould anything be done to fix the minor problem?

Finally,what is the fighting style with this dagger type,is it like the fighting style with a kaskara?

Any further info whould be appreciated,thanks to all...hopefully i'm not beeing a pest.

thanks all

21st March 2005, 01:25 PM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Three things pop immediately to mind, one being that many in the Sudan don't wear "belts" as such , but rather a wound sash......of what use is a "belt loop" to a person wearing a sash? Likewise, many are just tucked into the top of boots, with the third instance being a seperate "frog" such as the turn of the century Philippine knife that I just aquired from Vern, where the "loop" is a seperate piece of leather through which the scabbard/sheath proper slides in order to be carried on a western style belt. Mike Attached Images

21st March 2005, 06:58 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Aurangzeb, Outstanding find! What you have there certainly does appear to be a dagger from the 'Mahdiyya' (1881-1898) in the Sudan. I should point out though that I don't think in this particular instance the Mahdi was ever termed 'mad' I think the term considered was possibly from that used to describe the 'Mad Mullah of Somaliland' Sheikh Sayyid Muhammed c.1903, in events very similar to the the Mahdist revolt and British entanglement in Egyptian affairs. At this time of high Imperial attitudes though,the term may have been applied in singular instance, as it was often used to describe the religiously based and intense opposition of any individual to British rule. The British writers of the period tended to interpolate many narratives of colonial events with slang and terminology often derisively toward the 'savages' . For example the term 'dervishes' was typically used to describe the native warriors, and was actually a term which came from more common use in India (Pers. darvish=religious mendicant), used colloquially by the British military from the Raj there. It should be noted that the Turkish derivation of the word, and certainly found in Egypt, meant loosely beggar. Although the term dervish was once applied to themselves, the Mahdi opposed its use and applied the term 'ansar' (from the Koran =helper). He actually installed strict punishment for those who insisted on the use of the formerly applied 'dervish'. The term 'fuzzy-wuzzy' was directed to the much feared Hadendowa tribal swordsmen. While these slang terms were used often colloquially and in some perspective, derisively for the many groups of Mahdist forces, the poems by Kipling reflect the general consensus of British forces,that native warriors were actually not only feared but highly respected for thier courage in battle. This dagger is very similar to an example associated with weapons from Dongola province in northern Sudan, near the 3rd cataract, and interestingly is the region that the Mahdi himself, Mohammed Ahmed ibn el-Sayyed Abdullah , was born. The simple elongated hilt form is similar to the broad hilt 'jambia' daggers of Mughal India (Pant. p.161, fig.464) and it is interesting to note that other Indian weapon forms also appeared in the Sudan in this period, and were accordingly decorated with 'thuluth' motif. As has been noted , this is clearly not the typical arm dagger often worn by Hadendowa and other tribal warriors, so actually has little to do with 'fuzzy wuzzies but seems actually to belong to tribal groups farther north. I very much like the way you have displayed the dagger with associated Sudanese coinage and currency, extremely impressive and really enhances the historic nuances of the piece. Actually this recalls the many times we have relied on nusimatic evidence in the identification of many ethnographic weapons. Nicely done! Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st March 2005 at 11:36 PM.

22nd March 2005, 03:02 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mike, Thank you for the kind comment!! All this stuff is packed in the cobwebs in my skull!! Actually the Sudan is huge, one of the largest countries of Africa, and in the north it is mostly stony, arid desert. The southern regions are mostly scrub, swamp and morasses, the sudd. It would be difficult to begin to describe the traditional dress of the tribal units in the major groups, but it seems most wear varying forms of robes or jibba's, with groups toward Red Sea regions often basically wearing loin covering garments. The Hadendoa are a large sub-tribe of the Beja (bay-za) who inhabit Red Sea regions from Sudan and into Eritrea. It is interesting to note that the kaskara (termed locally sa'if only, the term kaskara is virtually unknown in the regions where they are used) is well known in Eritrea and into Somalia where carried by the Afar and Danakil. A friend who is Beja in discussions concerning the X-hilt daggers noted to me that the rather hooked blade examples of these were actually not Hadendoa, but either Afar or Danakil. The distinctive hilts are of course the same as Hadendoa. The black tassle or tuft you have noted on your kaskara is something that seems to occur on examples especially from Darfur regions. I am uncertain whether the color varies or the specific significance of these, however it would seem the color black was especially auspicious and associated with the black color he assigned to himself and his number one khalif. Ariel, It was great to meet you in Timonium! I really enjoyed our talk ,and you are quite keen on military history!! How appropriate it is to mention here 'The Thin Red Line' ...the brilliant Highlanders of the 93rd Regiment at Balaclava. I sense indescribable pride recalling the courage of these outstanding warriors, "There is no retreat from here men! You must die where you stand!" Sir Colin Campbell, commander The response was 'ay ay Sir Colin, needs be we'll do that!' The volleys and steadfastness of the Highlanders unnerved the huge numbers of Russian cavalry, whose order failed and ended in retreat. As you have shown, British infantry formations were remarkably formidable, and this illustrates clearly the incredible achievement of these native warriors in accomplishing the breaking of these 'squares'. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd March 2005 at 12:12 AM.

23rd March 2005, 03:14 AM	#8
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	question Hi all!! Thanks for all the help on my Sudanese dagger.I personally think the dagger might have even have been tuked in the sash of the warrior.The coins depicted with the dagger are only a small fraction of my Islamic/Sudanese coin collection.I do have several questions:First,are there any recommended books on sudanese weapons and the British-Sudanese war?Second,this question may seem dumb but,Why is Sudan sometimes called"The Sudan" instead of just"Sudan".Also the tip of the dagger protrudes from the sheath slightly,chould anything be done to fix the minor problem? Finally,what is the fighting style with this dagger type,is it like the fighting style with a kaskara? Any further info whould be appreciated,thanks to all...hopefully i'm not beeing a pest. thanks all Last edited by Aurangzeb; 23rd March 2005 at 03:46 AM. Reason: I gloriously forgot something again...

21st March 2005, 07:09 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The British were always immensely proud of their ability to stay the ground and keep their ranks: this was a survival requirement sine qua non, otherwise the disorganised infantry unit became an easy prey to the attacking cavalry. The most famous example of it was the "Thin Red Line" of the Scotch infantry that withstood the Russian cavalry charge at Balaclava (by the way, on the very same day that the famous Charge of the Light Brigade took place). Well, Sudanese Mahdists bear the distinction of dispensing with the tradition an breaking "the British Square". Not a mean achievement!

21st March 2005, 07:21 PM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Once again, Jim comes to the rescue with a collection of little known bits of information....where DO you find these jems? Since you brought up the Hadendowa, you've opened the door to several questions and a couple of comments. As I've stated before, my first sword was a kaskara brought back to me from Eritrea of a simple form and with a black "fuzzy" ball attached to the hilt, which, I believe, is also associated with the Mahdi? Likewise, I recently aquired a dagger usually associated with Haddendoa, with an exagerated, almost X-shaped hilt and a tooled leather sheath, this specimen one with the J-shaped blade, which made me realize that I don't think that I've ever seen a Haddendoa dagger with a loop of any kind. Is the common dress from this area primarily arabic style robes, such as those worn by the Bedouins and Tauregs? If the question sounds simplistic, excuse me, but my mind just hit a nick in the record that almost knocked "African" right out of the picture! knife From discussions with my son, I was advised that the majority of the area is now desert, which he found truly ironic as the native names for parts of the country are still used by tribesmen, which translates as "black jungle" and like ilk. Spears from that area, he said, were almost impossible to find intact as the majority of the shafts have long since been cannibalized for cooking fires, with the only other source being dried camel and donkey dung, which probably makes it fortunate that the predominate religion is now musim.....I'm fairly sure smoked pork ribs would have a distinct flavor, eh? How's that for a can of worms? By the way, that IS a beautiful dagger Mark, and a distinct variation from the form more commonly seen...aren't those known as "Waldmen daggers"? grin Mike

23rd March 2005, 12:09 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Andrew! Ya got me there!!!All it takes is a little Drambuie and out comes the trusty basket hilt! Oops gotta be careful....last time I just about took out my ceiling fan!! It was fun seeing you too, Jim