Raksasa

[tunggulametung]

Michael,

Thank you for sharing the reason about why you guess this hilt is a representation of Yaksha, acceptable in many ways.

However if I may, I personally suggest Hanuman as an alternative for some reasons like the tail-like stalk over the back to the right shoulder. To my limited experience, Hanuman/Hanoman/Anoman usually being described with similar tail position in Indonesia, the loose lion-like tail is more to India. I notice there are some fur-like strokes on the face, similar to a monkey face.

Seems like the character is seated, cross-legged. What he holds is really a puzzle, it can be purely decorative, has certain meaning, or simply the key to the character. But at least I can temporary suggest flower and leaf as an alternavite to kayon (tree of life) as a symbolism to offering to the God. I can find a crown-like design too above his head. And Hanuman is much more popular character than Yaksha, that I haven't heard related to keris before.

Pak Maisey, thank you for your insight, I'm agree with you. Above are simply a personal opinion which may 100% incorrect. But I think it is natural for human to find answer to the things that he don't understand. By the way, who do you think the character is? To me, this particular piece is cleverly done and I really think that the carver knows what he's doing.

[A. G. Maisey]

Tunggalametung, when I write things such as I have just written, I almost never present a personal opinion. I most usually present in a very abbreviated form information that I have gleaned from a number of sources. Often, I have no personal opinion on these things, simply because I have insufficient knowledge to be able to form a valid and supportable opinion.Where I do give an opinion I will normally identify it as an opinion and try to give sufficient evidence to support that opinion.

Now, in respect of my opinion of the subject depicted in the handle under discussion.

What I can see is a handle that falls within a category of North Coast Jawa, or perhaps Madura, handles that carries distillation of form into floral and foliate substitutions.

It is probable that this handle was intended to represent some being, however, did the carver know what being it was supposed to represent, or was he following an earlier pattern and adding his own embellishments?

Can we date this handle with reasonable certainty?

Having dated it, can we say that the carver was working from an earlier handle of similar pattern?

Or can we assume that he was working from an earlier handle with a less abstracted form?

Or can we accept that he created this handle form anew from an idea that he himself originated?

Or did he follow the instructions of a client?

I could probably go on creating questions that I for one am unable to answer, but I think that perhaps even these few questions might demonstrate the rather futile task we set ourselves when we attempt to interpret things that we have little hope of understanding.

I have a collection of a very large number of keris handles. I do not know exactly how many I have, but I do know that I have well over 100 handles made of ivory. When these handles are sorted into groups bearing similar characteristics, it is possible to identify recurring themes, and observe variations. Moving from end to end of the range in variation can produce figures at either end of the range that bear little resemblance to each other.

I have spent considerable time with present day carvers, and have watched the way in which they work, and asked why they included certain features in their carvings at certain points. Sometimes the answer will be that it was done because the material demanded it.

Yes, this is a reasonably well carved handle, but I regret that my level of psychic ability is insufficient for me attempt a guess at what the carver may have been intending to represent, or indeed, if he even had an understanding of what it was that he was carving.

[tunggulametung]

Thank you again Pak Maisey,

I'm agree that northern coastal or Madura artistic touch is there, and much probably being the origin of the hilt in my opinion too.

Interesting questions that you suggest. Yes, I believe we cannot give exact answers to those, and guessing without sufficient evidence could bring us to misleading perception , I get your point, that's very wise. Please let us know when one day you come across with any informations about this style.

To Michael, I hope that someday you can find a reference or better explanation about your keris hilt. I do hope that this one is not the one created with no meaning except for its decorative looking, or carved following to the material demand .

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...It is probable that this handle was intended to represent some being, however, did the carver know what being it was supposed to represent, or was he following an earlier pattern and adding his own embellishments?

Can we date this handle with reasonable certainty?

Having dated it, can we say that the carver was working from an earlier handle of similar pattern?

Or can we assume that he was working from an earlier handle with a less abstracted form?

Or can we accept that he created this handle form anew from an idea that he himself originated?

(snip)

I have a collection of a very large number of keris handles. I do not know exactly how many I have, but I do know that I have well over 100 handles made of ivory. When these handles are sorted into groups bearing similar characteristics, it is possible to identify recurring themes, and observe variations. Moving from end to end of the range in variation can produce figures at either end of the range that bear little resemblance to each other...

Alan,

Please note that I wrote that it "could be a Yaksha?".
Of course it's hard to say that it definately is one.

What IMHO speaks against some of your, otherwise valid, arguments above is that specifically this hilt seems to be quite unique in its form/pattern.
Do you f.i. in your large hilt collection have two hilts that overall resembles this one in style?
I haven't found any in the museum archives that I know of. The closest one in style is the Java-Kalimantan-flower-holding-old-magic-hilt pictured in for instance the Budaya Indonesia book on page 211.

I am also a bit sceptical to that everything changed after "societal dominance by Islam".
To me it's obvious that a lot of old Hindu beliefs and rituals still is practiced on Java today. They even have kept their old Sanskrit names!
Christendom has dominated southern Europe for quite some time but over 1000 years afterwards you still could see motifs and symbolism from the old Greco-Roman religion. Up here in North of Europe still 1000 - 1200 years after we got "christened" (in the 9th C) the same could be noticed regarding traditions and symbolism of the old Norse religion. Like a typical Swedish Midsummer celebration.
Some symbolism, traditions and beliefs seems to survive a very long time after a new religion has gained dominance. In my experience this is especially valid within magic, talismans, protective and fertility needs etc.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Agreed Michael, it could be a yaksha.

In fact it could be anything.

Perhaps the carver knew what it was.

Perhaps he did not.

Perhaps it was an abstraction of an abstraction .

Perhaps it was an original creation.

To clarify a point Michael, I have put no arguments in my comments. I am not pushing any barrow here, I am simply attempting to place on record the situation in respect of interpretation of SE Asian art, as it appears to be understood by a number of people who know vastly more than I do about the subject. What I have gathered is that it is often rather futlie to attempt to interpret things that we do not understand, indeed, can have no hope of understanding. Most especially when people within the same time frame and from the same cultural background cannot understand those things if they lack the specialist knowledge that will allow them to understand.

There is no need for you to be a bit sceptical that everything changed after societal dominance by Islam.

Of course everything did not change.

And I have at no time suggested that everything did change.

What I said about Islam was this:-

This question is of course meaningless unless it it is framed within the historical structure of the relevant society, thus in Jawa this point could be argued to have occurred with societal dominance by Islam, whilst in Bali the point in time will be a different one.

I have used this as an example, not as a definitive. The point at which the societal shift took place could as easily have been with the organisation of Javanese society into into city states; it could have been with the shift of power from Central Jawa to East Jawa, it could have been with any number of things, and I am not suggesting for one moment that I have any idea when this point may have been reached. I have no idea when professional carvers appeared on the scene in Jawa and began to produce art works rather than talismanically potent personal adornments that served a societal purpose.

What I am suggesting is this:- to hypothesise upon the identity of an abstracted figure from a time long past, and from a society that is only partially understood, even by authorities respected as expert on that society and its history, organisation and beliefs is an entertaining pastime, but hardly a useful one, and has the potential to mislead, rather than to provide substantial answers.

It is always very tempting to attempt to build constructs on those things we do not understand.

We see all this artistic variety and abstraction in Javanese keris handles, and we would not be human if we did not try to affix identities to those hilt figures.However, the truth could be vastly different from our hypotheses, and at this remove it is impossible know with any certainty what that truth may be.Most especially is it impossible in the case of representation bearing a set of unique characteristics that prevents it being aligned with known and acknowledged forms.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...(snip) We see all this artistic variety and abstraction in Javanese keris handles, and we would not be human if we did not try to affix identities to those hilt figures.However, the truth could be vastly different from our hypotheses, and at this remove it is impossible know with any certainty what that truth may be.Most especially is it impossible in the case of representation bearing a set of unique characteristics that prevents it being aligned with known and acknowledged forms.

Alan,

Probably I misunderstood your earlier posts on what you wanted to state with your questions.
As well as the "societal dominance by Islam"-part.
On the quote above it seems like we agree.

You who don't want to give a public opinion based on that you can't prove it for sure (which I of course respect as the proper professional way).

And I who, being human , can't help to speculate in an identity. But I specify it as a "could be" and that "I am open to other suggestions". The reason for this is of course that I am curious on other people's, like yours, Tunggulametung's and other forumites', ideas on this hilt. This even if we probably never will be able to 100% prove what it actually was supposed to be and symbolize.


Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

In face to face conversation with a group of friends, maybe after dinner, and over a couple ports, this type of speculation and discussion has a place. Nothing is on record, we can float the most outlandish possibilities, and nobody really cares, its just conversation to fill time . Nobody pins us down to any sort of critical thinking or standard, we are not called on to justify anything, nor to substantiate anything. We can simply say what we think something might look like, and nobody is sufficiently ill-mannered to point out that we know absolutely nothing about the culture, society, or history that produced the item, nor about the item itself. We float an opinion, have another glass of port and move on to discussion of the prices at last week's yearling sales.

However, in this Forum, our little Warung Kopi, we have managed to gather together some fairly serious people, who are in turn fairly serious about the subjects that are discussed. A casual reader, or a reader who did not understand the nuances of the English language, could interpret a speculative claim for something as an authoritative claim, and that claim can be repeated in other places, eventually damaging the reputation of the person who speculated, and of the discussion group which allowed the speculation to pass without challenge. Once the reputation of any person, or organisation is damaged, it is very difficult to reclaim the former good reputation. Keris Warung Kopi is an organisation, and for our own credibility, we need to protect the reputation of our organisation.

[Battara]

I agree with Alan that many things did change with the cultural acceptance of Islam for Java and others. This also happened in the southern Philippines. Now there were still old practices that did not die out then, but for example, the use of clear images of animals and people changed to more abstract forms. This occured the area of Indonesia, Malaysia, and the southern Philippines to follow the edict of "no graven images". Just one example among many. I thus find more abstract expressions than not in kris hilts among areas that are not Balinese or Madura.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Agreed Michael, it could be a yaksha.

In fact it could be anything.

Perhaps the carver knew what it was.

Perhaps he did not.

Perhaps it was an abstraction of an abstraction .

Perhaps it was an original creation.

Well Michael, i'll tell you what it IS. It's beautiful! But, of course, even that is a subjective opinion. I, however, find great beauty in it.

[VVV]

On the seriousness issue; to me a coffee shop discussion group isn't at the same level as a university seminar.
Like wikipedia I don't think that this forum ever will be accepted as a valid, standalone, academic reference for facts about the Keris.
Some of the members however, like Alan, could qualify. But then based on their articles, not their posts on this forum.
So I respect if he, and others, don't want to share their hard to prove ideas on the forum.
But I hope those who do is allowed to do so as long as they state that it's a "could be" or something similar?


Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, you're probably right Michael, and I must admit, one of my pet hatreds is this thing of floating ideas without evidence, and without an understanding of the foundations. Going back maybe 30 or 40 years I was a massive offender in this respect, but I finished up with egg on my face too often, so these days I if I float ideas I want to be able to support them. Thus it annoys me when I see ideas floated that are just ideas. My deficiency, and it should not effect anybody else, if, as you say the ideas are qualified as possibilities only.

But the real problem is, I think, that things said here can get picked up and retailed in other places. If those ideas are taken out of context, and without the qualifying rider, then you can get a situation where a wrong concept gets started.You're right, this discussion group will not ever achieve academic status, and I doubt that most members of it would want that in any case, but it is the most widely accepted internet keris reference in a western language.To my mind, that makes it something that we should take good care of.

The nature of any discussion is that any contributor to the discussion can say whatever he may please to say, provided he is prepared to stand behind his utterances. If this is accepted, then of course anybody may float any idea they wish, provided any other person may speak against that idea. The essential element is that we maintain discussion, and do our level best to prevent that discussion from deteriorating into distasteful argument.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

...However if I may, I personally suggest Hanuman as an alternative for some reasons like the tail-like stalk over the back to the right shoulder. To my limited experience, Hanuman/Hanoman/Anoman usually being described with similar tail position in Indonesia, the loose lion-like tail is more to India. I notice there are some fur-like strokes on the face, similar to a monkey face...

Tunggulametung,

Thanks for your clarification on my pictures. It's always hard when you don't have the hilt in your hands and I am afraid that the tail resemblence is because of camera angles. Below are 2 other pictures were you can see that it only looks like a tail when seen from the side and not from the back.

On the position, cross legged or not, I find it hard to tell? Usually the meander border pattern is at belt level?

On the Yaksha attribute I was inspired by Karsten Sejr Jensen who classify old hilts with dominating vegetative elements as Yakshas. And if not as Rakshasas.

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

...To Michael, I hope that someday you can find a reference or better explanation about your keris hilt. I do hope that this one is not the one created with no meaning except for its decorative looking, or carved following to the material demand .

Thanks

I don't think so either in this case.
I reply to Alan's post below.

Michael