Help with Identification Please

katana · 31st January 2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

In fact the blade is dead central with the langets. Camera angle made it look wrong.Further pic herewith.
Regards Stuart

Hi Stuart,
I'm pleased to be wrong

....the more I look at the sword...the more I think it's a 'genuine hybrid' .....any luck in ID'ing the resin ?
With the history of trade etc between India and SEA I can see no reason why the mating of hilt and blade would not occur. I am curious as to the balance of the sword, with such a distal taper I suspect that it is not as 'tip heavy' as it looks.

Jim, I wondered whether such a sword, with its mix of ethnic cultures and its overall length of nearly 30" the blade nearly 25" would have made a good candidate for a 'maritime' (pirate

) weapon.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2008, 12:02 AM

Thank you so much RhysMichael ! it looks like we're pretty much on the same page! I like that you brought up the Qianlong emperor, which is an excellent example of hybrid weapons carrying pronounced Indian influence.
Another case in point are the koras with tulwar hilts, that seem to come from Bengal regions bordering Nepal.

Your thinking is anything but flawed! Its exactly the kind of thinking we should all employ as we study these weapons. Speculation is simply presenting ideas that need more evidence and support, which we always hope will be brought in by others with access to resources or examples that may either support or disprove the idea.

I have always been intrigued by examples of Indian swords mounted with British blades, and in some instances vice versa during the British Raj. In North Africa, it is difficult to find examples of the Manding sabre not mounted with usually French but almost always European sabre blades.
In Ceylon, the kastane nearly always had European hanger blades, many often with Dutch VOC markings.
We could go on for some time with examples of foreign blades mounted in local hilts, often one the primary theme of much of the research on many threads.
Also an excellent point on the Kachin !

You're right with us David! and I think this piece looks pretty good!
Also I like your idea about possibility as a pirate weapon!

it probably would be if any of these guys got thier hands on one.

Thanks very much guys,
Jim

ariel · 1st February 2008, 01:27 AM

Swords with Indo-Muslim (Tulwar-type)handles were the most popular and abundant in India, and spare handles were aplenty because of higher incidence of blade failures. Thus, it is not counterintuitive to suggest that handles could have found their way into adjacent areas. Perhaps, their use might have been more prevalent among the "higher classes", because the rank and file, as usual with all commodities, were likely to get stuck with the local models.
Any evidence of a higher than usual quality of the Dha blade?

kahnjar1 · 1st February 2008, 02:20 AM

Have not been able to establish EXACT composition of resin, other than to say that it is hard rather than softish as one might expect if it was some sort of putty.
The blade DOES appear to be of GOOD quality. Certainly not a cheap forging in my opinion, compared with some of those seen on some dha.
Thanks guys for all the thoughts. Not sure we are any closer to a resolve, but certainly some very valid ideas have emerged.
Regards Stuart

kahnjar1 · 1st February 2008, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Have not been able to establish EXACT composition of resin, other than to say that it is hard rather than softish as one might expect if it was some sort of putty.
The blade DOES appear to be of GOOD quality. Certainly not a cheap forging in my opinion, compared with some of those seen on some dha.
Thanks guys for all the thoughts. Not sure we are any closer to a resolve, but certainly some very valid ideas have emerged.
Regards Stuart

Further information to hand. I have just been talking to the owner of this sword, and he advises that it was picked up in a Paris fleamarket in the 1950s. He also has two other swords which came with this one.
I will pick these up over the week end and post them for comment also. One is a Tulwar with a marked/decorated blade and the other a european style sword in scabbard.
Regards Stuart

kahnjar1 · 17th February 2008, 01:48 AM

I see that Artzi has another hybrid for sale on the OA site (item 9103). This time it is a Khyber knife with a Tulwar hilt.
It would appear that the practice of combining styles is not just related Dha/Tulwar.

1st February 2008, 02:20 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Resin and blade Have not been able to establish EXACT composition of resin, other than to say that it is hard rather than softish as one might expect if it was some sort of putty. The blade DOES appear to be of GOOD quality. Certainly not a cheap forging in my opinion, compared with some of those seen on some dha. Thanks guys for all the thoughts. Not sure we are any closer to a resolve, but certainly some very valid ideas have emerged. Regards Stuart

17th February 2008, 01:48 AM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	FURTHER HYBRID I see that Artzi has another hybrid for sale on the OA site (item 9103). This time it is a Khyber knife with a Tulwar hilt. It would appear that the practice of combining styles is not just related Dha/Tulwar.

1st February 2008, 12:02 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Thank you so much RhysMichael ! it looks like we're pretty much on the same page! I like that you brought up the Qianlong emperor, which is an excellent example of hybrid weapons carrying pronounced Indian influence. Another case in point are the koras with tulwar hilts, that seem to come from Bengal regions bordering Nepal. Your thinking is anything but flawed! Its exactly the kind of thinking we should all employ as we study these weapons. Speculation is simply presenting ideas that need more evidence and support, which we always hope will be brought in by others with access to resources or examples that may either support or disprove the idea. I have always been intrigued by examples of Indian swords mounted with British blades, and in some instances vice versa during the British Raj. In North Africa, it is difficult to find examples of the Manding sabre not mounted with usually French but almost always European sabre blades. In Ceylon, the kastane nearly always had European hanger blades, many often with Dutch VOC markings. We could go on for some time with examples of foreign blades mounted in local hilts, often one the primary theme of much of the research on many threads. Also an excellent point on the Kachin ! You're right with us David! and I think this piece looks pretty good! Also I like your idea about possibility as a pirate weapon! it probably would be if any of these guys got thier hands on one. Thanks very much guys, Jim

1st February 2008, 01:27 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Swords with Indo-Muslim (Tulwar-type)handles were the most popular and abundant in India, and spare handles were aplenty because of higher incidence of blade failures. Thus, it is not counterintuitive to suggest that handles could have found their way into adjacent areas. Perhaps, their use might have been more prevalent among the "higher classes", because the rank and file, as usual with all commodities, were likely to get stuck with the local models. Any evidence of a higher than usual quality of the Dha blade?