Mystery Inscription on Controversial Sword

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2008, 04:15 AM

Thank you so much for remembering the presentation Charles, that was quite an event that evening. I dont have a copy right now to send you, but I hope to gain access to my material soon, and I will be delighted to get you a copy. I am very interested in seeing the photo you note from the Gasior site, which sounds as if it further supports the Moroccan attribution. There seems to have been a certain degree of variation in these s'boula as further discussed in Buttin's "Les Poignards et les Sabres Morocains" ("Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939), if I recall correctly, however the hilt as seen here is shown in the 1933 reference, and again as Moroccan.

Kahnjar1, I appreciate your citing the Tirri reference, and I must say that Mr. Tirri did convincingly support the example he held that evening was of course from Ethiopia. His notes accompanying the illustrations (and Moroccan provenance) would of course support the suggestion I made in 2003 that there may have been a connection via Saharan trade between the Jewish artisans in Morocco and the Falashas in Ethiopia, accounting for the presence of a number of these in Ethiopia.
Interestingly, the same premise occurred somewhat that same evening with the suggestion that the Black Sea Yataghan was actually North African, based on an example with some decidedly North African characteristics. This contention was outweighed by the preponderance of these swords that had presence throughout Transcaucasian and Turkish regions.

These are definitely fascinating ethnographic weapons, and even more so is that they carry such interesting history reflecting the dynamics of diffusion via the vast trade, cultural and intertribal networks.

All very best regards,
Jim

fernando · 25th January 2008, 06:36 PM

Amazing thing

If you invert (mirror) one of the images, you will find that some "characters" look alike

.

CharlesS · 25th January 2008, 07:55 PM

Yes, I thought that interesting too.

Gavin Nugent · 25th January 2008, 09:48 PM

You are quite the whiz with the computer images Fernando. Great work.

roanoa · 26th January 2008, 12:55 AM

Great sword. From Morocco. I have seen a couple of nice pictures of Berber warriors wearing them. Though this type of sword has been reported as being from Ethiopia, I would say that it is not. The wrong identification is probably due to the fact that the hilt "looks" Ethiopian. But it ends there. It is quite possible that a few of these swords showed up in Ethiopian market places. A lot of weapons from all over the world did. Tony Tirri just published his secon GREAT book "ISLAMIC AND NATIVE WEAPONS OF COLONIAL AFRICA" and he agrees about it being from Morocco. When information on African weapons was VERY scanty, this sword was shown in A WEAPONS HISTORY OF AFRICA by A.W. Lindert. He said it was Ethiopian. Guess there was nobody to question his statement. But.... he said many things that were not accurate. I'll stick to the Berber version. As far as the "writing" is concern, I will suggest that it is simply a decorative pattern.
Have fun in Baltimore, Charles.

ariel · 26th January 2008, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Great sword. From Morocco. I have seen a couple of nice pictures of Berber warriors wearing them. Though this type of sword has been reported as being from Ethiopia, I would say that it is not. The wrong identification is probably due to the fact that the hilt "looks" Ethiopian. But it ends there. It is quite possible that a few of these swords showed up in Ethiopian market places. A lot of weapons from all over the world did. Tony Tirri just published his secon GREAT book "ISLAMIC AND NATIVE WEAPONS OF COLONIAL AFRICA" and he agrees about it being from Morocco. When information on African weapons was VERY scanty, this sword was shown in A WEAPONS HISTORY OF AFRICA by A.W. Lindert. He said it was Ethiopian. Guess there was nobody to question his statement. But.... he said many things that were not accurate. I'll stick to the Berber version. As far as the "writing" is concern, I will suggest that it is simply a decorative pattern.
Have fun in Baltimore, Charles.

Another book?
Where can one see it?

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2008, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roanoa

Great sword. From Morocco. I have seen a couple of nice pictures of Berber warriors wearing them. Though this type of sword has been reported as being from Ethiopia, I would say that it is not. The wrong identification is probably due to the fact that the hilt "looks" Ethiopian. But it ends there. It is quite possible that a few of these swords showed up in Ethiopian market places. A lot of weapons from all over the world did. Tony Tirri just published his secon GREAT book "ISLAMIC AND NATIVE WEAPONS OF COLONIAL AFRICA" and he agrees about it being from Morocco. When information on African weapons was VERY scanty, this sword was shown in A WEAPONS HISTORY OF AFRICA by A.W. Lindert. He said it was Ethiopian. Guess there was nobody to question his statement. But.... he said many things that were not accurate. I'll stick to the Berber version. As far as the "writing" is concern, I will suggest that it is simply a decorative pattern.
Have fun in Baltimore, Charles.

Thank you Roanoa for citing that reference by Lindert. I couldn't recall the title. I agree with what you're saying about these swords turning up in Ethiopia, in fact I've mentioned it several times in previous posts. Its very nice to have support from someone with your established knowledge of Ethiopian weapons. I'd like to see the pictures of Berbers wearing these! That would have been perfect to add to the presentation in 2003 stating these were actually from Morocco! I'm also glad that Mr.Tirri has acknowledged the Moroccan attribution on these, and very much look forward to seeing his new book! While his previous book, like most, has a couple of items pertaining to certain weapons that there were disagreement on, it remains a great book for collectors. I'm sure the new one on Africa will be also!

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 26th January 2008, 09:47 PM

I have just noticed "roanoa" response to this thread. When and how can we get this next book by Tirri. I would need one.

25th January 2008, 06:36 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Amazing thing If you invert (mirror) one of the images, you will find that some "characters" look alike . Attached Images

25th January 2008, 09:48 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	clever You are quite the whiz with the computer images Fernando. Great work.

25th January 2008, 04:15 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much for remembering the presentation Charles, that was quite an event that evening. I dont have a copy right now to send you, but I hope to gain access to my material soon, and I will be delighted to get you a copy. I am very interested in seeing the photo you note from the Gasior site, which sounds as if it further supports the Moroccan attribution. There seems to have been a certain degree of variation in these s'boula as further discussed in Buttin's "Les Poignards et les Sabres Morocains" ("Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939), if I recall correctly, however the hilt as seen here is shown in the 1933 reference, and again as Moroccan. Kahnjar1, I appreciate your citing the Tirri reference, and I must say that Mr. Tirri did convincingly support the example he held that evening was of course from Ethiopia. His notes accompanying the illustrations (and Moroccan provenance) would of course support the suggestion I made in 2003 that there may have been a connection via Saharan trade between the Jewish artisans in Morocco and the Falashas in Ethiopia, accounting for the presence of a number of these in Ethiopia. Interestingly, the same premise occurred somewhat that same evening with the suggestion that the Black Sea Yataghan was actually North African, based on an example with some decidedly North African characteristics. This contention was outweighed by the preponderance of these swords that had presence throughout Transcaucasian and Turkish regions. These are definitely fascinating ethnographic weapons, and even more so is that they carry such interesting history reflecting the dynamics of diffusion via the vast trade, cultural and intertribal networks. All very best regards, Jim

25th January 2008, 07:55 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Yes, I thought that interesting too.

26th January 2008, 12:55 AM	#5
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	Great sword. From Morocco. I have seen a couple of nice pictures of Berber warriors wearing them. Though this type of sword has been reported as being from Ethiopia, I would say that it is not. The wrong identification is probably due to the fact that the hilt "looks" Ethiopian. But it ends there. It is quite possible that a few of these swords showed up in Ethiopian market places. A lot of weapons from all over the world did. Tony Tirri just published his secon GREAT book "ISLAMIC AND NATIVE WEAPONS OF COLONIAL AFRICA" and he agrees about it being from Morocco. When information on African weapons was VERY scanty, this sword was shown in A WEAPONS HISTORY OF AFRICA by A.W. Lindert. He said it was Ethiopian. Guess there was nobody to question his statement. But.... he said many things that were not accurate. I'll stick to the Berber version. As far as the "writing" is concern, I will suggest that it is simply a decorative pattern. Have fun in Baltimore, Charles.

26th January 2008, 09:47 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I have just noticed "roanoa" response to this thread. When and how can we get this next book by Tirri. I would need one.