Archaic proto-, boy's- or miniature souvenir-kris?

Bill · 25th January 2008, 01:53 AM

The guard would start at the base of the "flame". Take a look at where the base of the flame would meet the guard. On both of the swords I have, the base, as it is about to hit the guard starts to flair back out to meet the outside of the guard but it is very clear they are separate. It would be near impossible to file a perfect 90 degrees. One of your pics seem to show a separation line under the elephants head. One of my kris is a straight line. The other is straight almost to the end (1/4") & has a perfect curve. That same one has no visible line, on one side where the flame mets the guard & clearly part the stirrup shows wear where the user gripped the hilt & had his thumb on the flame & stirrup. I would guess these guys put in a lot of practice hours & time cleaning from the tropical rust.

VVV · 26th January 2008, 02:25 PM

Thanks for your comments and hints.
I have cleaned the area a bit better and as you can see on the first of the attached pictures on one side the ganja seems to have a 45 degree separation line at the end.

Michael

David · 26th January 2008, 05:08 PM

I knew it ahd to be there somewhere. Actually Michael, i can also see the line in the second photo though not as well. It is amazing that the panday could make such a tight fit, especially with a 45 degree turn like that. I have a very similar hidden line on one of mine, though it is a much later variety of kris.

kai · 26th January 2008, 06:31 PM

Hello Michael,

Good job!

From the separation line as well as the extensive greneng I get the suspicion that this blade could be at least as likely from the 19th century (following Cato's dating) as earlier. All typical archaic pieces (that also seem to exhibit the wear to be reasonably supposed to be pre-19th century) seem to have very rudimentary greneng (cp. Alan's example) - are there early examples with extensive greneng that I missed?

Regards,
Kai

tunggulametung · 26th January 2008, 07:23 PM

Michael, beautiful kris!

Seeing the pictures of your first post (2nd & 4th pict) with all that 'sogokan' work, I believe personally from the beginning that it has saperate ganya. Everybody here seems to has the same impression with that pictures.

Anyway, the smaller pommel might be the answer to the length of gripping area. That measure plus the small pommel support will fit well to my asian hands. I'll be delighted to keep the kris if that does not fit to your hands

Battara · 27th January 2008, 12:06 AM

I know that among many Filipinos there has been some debate on the separation line theory. Some of us have noticed that not all early/archaic Moro kris have straight separation lines at the ganja. Some do infact have a 45 degree slant.

kai · 27th January 2008, 01:05 PM

Hello Jose,

Quote:

Some of us have noticed that not all early/archaic Moro kris have straight separation lines at the ganja. Some do infact have a 45 degree slant.

Yes, I agree that our current working hypotheses need to be very critically examined, especially due to the scarcity of dated examples.

Most archaic Moro kris with obvious age (from wear, provenance, etc.) have a minute kink (at roughly 45 deg.) like Rick's left piece above or those upper 2 shown by Cato in Fig. 44. Also Alan's piece does seem to have had such a hardly noticeable protrusion. I've seen blades which have a perfect minute curve and a rectangular protrusion instead, respectively.

Then there are examples with a larger protrusion like the lower piece in Cato's Fig. 44 or even larger protrusions (like in Michael's piece). Especially the latter are pretty much in line what we'd consider to be 19th century pieces from later Moro kris style blades.

Since this "archaic kris" style seems to have been into production till the early 20th century at least (the latter examples seem to show similar lower skills as in other Moro kris blades), my main question would be which criteria can be used to tell wether any given "archaic" blade is really old, intermediate, even more recent (like 1895-1930)... I realize that Mabagani and others have reasons to believe that Cato underestimated the age - this would just shift the dating (not affecting the discussion wether we can estimate from the features of a blade to which age-class it belongs).

Are there examples with a more 19th c. gangya which show wear and/or greneng consistent with the oldest pieces?

Any "straight" gangya pieces with elaborate greneng similar to Michael's piece above? (Rick's left blade exhibits about the maximum greneng I've seen, I guess.)

Regards,
Kai

26th January 2008, 02:25 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for your comments and hints. I have cleaned the area a bit better and as you can see on the first of the attached pictures on one side the ganja seems to have a 45 degree separation line at the end. Michael Attached Images

25th January 2008, 01:53 AM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	The guard would start at the base of the "flame". Take a look at where the base of the flame would meet the guard. On both of the swords I have, the base, as it is about to hit the guard starts to flair back out to meet the outside of the guard but it is very clear they are separate. It would be near impossible to file a perfect 90 degrees. One of your pics seem to show a separation line under the elephants head. One of my kris is a straight line. The other is straight almost to the end (1/4") & has a perfect curve. That same one has no visible line, on one side where the flame mets the guard & clearly part the stirrup shows wear where the user gripped the hilt & had his thumb on the flame & stirrup. I would guess these guys put in a lot of practice hours & time cleaning from the tropical rust.

26th January 2008, 05:08 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I knew it ahd to be there somewhere. Actually Michael, i can also see the line in the second photo though not as well. It is amazing that the panday could make such a tight fit, especially with a 45 degree turn like that. I have a very similar hidden line on one of mine, though it is a much later variety of kris.

26th January 2008, 06:31 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Michael, Good job! From the separation line as well as the extensive greneng I get the suspicion that this blade could be at least as likely from the 19th century (following Cato's dating) as earlier. All typical archaic pieces (that also seem to exhibit the wear to be reasonably supposed to be pre-19th century) seem to have very rudimentary greneng (cp. Alan's example) - are there early examples with extensive greneng that I missed? Regards, Kai

26th January 2008, 07:23 PM	#5
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Michael, beautiful kris! Seeing the pictures of your first post (2nd & 4th pict) with all that 'sogokan' work, I believe personally from the beginning that it has saperate ganya. Everybody here seems to has the same impression with that pictures. Anyway, the smaller pommel might be the answer to the length of gripping area. That measure plus the small pommel support will fit well to my asian hands. I'll be delighted to keep the kris if that does not fit to your hands

27th January 2008, 12:06 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I know that among many Filipinos there has been some debate on the separation line theory. Some of us have noticed that not all early/archaic Moro kris have straight separation lines at the ganja. Some do infact have a 45 degree slant.