Ethnographical weapons re-interpretated

Conogre · 19th March 2005, 09:04 PM

Antonio, that's an often asked and discussed question here, and as to be expected, with a wide diversity of answers which shows that in the end it's subjective to one degree or another, to everyone.
For example, just the name of this forum, "Ethnographic weapons".
Being a US citizen, to me, everything except weapons peculiar to the US, which includes almost everything, is ethnographic, while the term, in relation to swords and such, at least to my understanding, includes everything except European bladed weapons.
Again, most collectors seem to be purists, meaning a bladed weapon style coming from and used by the peoples that originated and used them, with value placed upon age, but again, a certain amount of subjectivity enters into it here as well, particularly, for instance, in cases such as areas of New Guinea that had still had relatively little outside contact as recently as the 1950's.
This is where terms such as "contemporary", "reproduction", "imitation" and "tourist" enter into it and discussions become more heated and viewpoints more vehement.
Many to most, I would imagine, would consider your beautiful piece a contemporary reproduction, no matter what the quality, care and skill that went into its construction, with some considering it all but valueless, or a curiosity at best, while others see and appreciate the worth of pieces made by artisans and craftsmen just as much as antiques of bygone times.
Contemporary swords and knives of quality are often as valuable as as some of the antiques as well, particularly where attention is paid to remaining faithful to original specifications, such as using a good high carbon steel vs stainless, because of the inherent brittleness that usually comes as a trade off for being less susceptible to corrosion.
In many cases, the true test, however, is often in how the piece is presented, as in the case of artificially aged reproductions being passed off as aged original antiques, which to me expresses the basic crux of the problem.
If a piece is made so well that even expert scientific scrutiny is unable to differentiate it from an original, where is the harm, other than to an ego?
I know that I'm in the minority here, and with a much broader range of interests and conditions of acceptability than most, but I myself think that you've made a beautiful creation there that would stand extremely well on it's own merits and be a worthy addition to any collection.
Mike

Antonio Cejunior · 19th March 2005, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

Antonio, that's an often asked and discussed question here, and as to be expected, with a wide diversity of answers which shows that in the end it's subjective to one degree or another, to everyone.
For example, just the name of this forum, "Ethnographic weapons".
Being a US citizen, to me, everything except weapons peculiar to the US, which includes almost everything, is ethnographic, while the term, in relation to swords and such, at least to my understanding, includes everything except European bladed weapons.
Again, most collectors seem to be purists, meaning a bladed weapon style coming from and used by the peoples that originated and used them, with value placed upon age, but again, a certain amount of subjectivity enters into it here as well, particularly, for instance, in cases such as areas of New Guinea that had still had relatively little outside contact as recently as the 1950's.
This is where terms such as "contemporary", "reproduction", "imitation" and "tourist" enter into it and discussions become more heated and viewpoints more vehement.
Many to most, I would imagine, would consider your beautiful piece a contemporary reproduction, no matter what the quality, care and skill that went into its construction, with some considering it all but valueless, or a curiosity at best, while others see and appreciate the worth of pieces made by artisans and craftsmen just as much as antiques of bygone times.

Hi Mike,

I wasn't aware of earlier posts on the subject. But thank you for taking the time to reply.
I fully understand the subjectivity of the issue in the eyes of collectors and I wouldn't want to go into any heated discussions.

My issue is to understand others' viewpoints.
I say contemporary as opposed to antique, and obviously hibryd.
I wonder how much we consider the travel of knowledge and products in the past. Just to think how Pasta travelled from China to Italy, how silks and brocades came to the West via the Silk Road, how porcelain is now made in the West as an inheritor of the East.
Your words on the piece are most kind. It was placed here as an example, and my earlier paragraph was based on the thought of how the Keris has travelled as well. There is a polearm in China that has a Kris point and another one that very much reminds me of the half moon shape of Turkey.

Quote:

Contemporary swords and knives of quality are often as valuable as as some of the antiques as well, particularly where attention is paid to remaining faithful to original specifications, such as using a good high carbon steel vs stainless, because of the inherent brittleness that usually comes as a trade off for being less susceptible to corrosion.
In many cases, the true test, however, is often in how the piece is presented, as in the case of artificially aged reproductions being passed off as aged original antiques, which to me expresses the basic crux of the problem.
If a piece is made so well that even expert scientific scrutiny is unable to differentiate it from an original, where is the harm, other than to an ego?
I know that I'm in the minority here, and with a much broader range of interests and conditions of acceptability than most, but I myself think that you've made a beautiful creation there that would stand extremely well on it's own merits and be a worthy addition to any collection.
Mike

As an ex-Museum Director and still working as a Consultant for a Museum, I am quite comfortable with both ancient and contemporary art. I do not think that they collide. I do often see ancestry in the former and respect both.
Again thank you for your kind words. I'd like to state, since I am a newcomer here, that I was/am definitely not looking for any kind comments, but to assess how a specific forum of collectors would view contemporanity.

Thank you so much for your great input.
Best regards,
Antonio

Andrew · 20th March 2005, 05:51 AM

I'm in Timonium, and pressed for time as my laptop's battery is running low and the charger is home in Florida.

However, let me say I really enjoy your interpretive designs, Antonio, and not just that dha which, of course, I really like. Some of your Japanese inspired swords are attractive to me in ways most Japanese swords are not.

I'm one of those collectors that likes to aquire. However, I really obsess about only one particular form at a time. For some years, it has been dha, and I luxuriate in the seemingly endless variations and interpretations seen from the original culture. I think it's perfectly acceptable to arrive at one's own interpretation of a weapon form. These are things, after all, and so long as they are not presented as something they are not, I'm not interested in entertaining criticism of my "failure" to adhere to conservation of the original.

My interpretation of a Thai darb designed with and executed by sword maker John Lundemo:

Antonio Cejunior · 20th March 2005, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm in Timonium, and pressed for time as my laptop's battery is running low and the charger is home in Florida.

However, let me say I really enjoy your interpretive designs, Antonio, and not just that dha which, of course, I really like. Some of your Japanese inspired swords are attractive to me in ways most Japanese swords are not.

I'm one of those collectors that likes to aquire. However, I really obsess about only one particular form at a time. For some years, it has been dha, and I luxuriate in the seemingly endless variations and interpretations seen from the original culture. I think it's perfectly acceptable to arrive at one's own interpretation of a weapon form. These are things, after all, and so long as they are not presented as something they are not, I'm not interested in entertaining criticism of my "failure" to adhere to conservation of the original.

My interpretation of a Thai darb designed with and executed by sword maker John Lundemo:

Hi Andrew,

Hope your trip is going well and your computer is holding.
Your words are too kind, as always

I've always liked that dha, specially the damascus work.
You see, what I think it is we are all hybrid ourselves, for long. Countries were shaped by layers of invaders that mixed with the earlier ones.
And the US is the permanent melting pot that has proven to be one of the forerunners of present day culture.
This being said, I do admire your devotion to the dha.
I myself have a compulsion to take things that touch me, and try to change it.
In my dhakris project still to be made, it was this detail that touched me profoundly

for the beauty of the details which I felt could be incorporated in the spine of a blade-to-be...

As for the Japanese style, they are more common and are becoming boring, or unchallanging

Too formal wraps done a ten thousand times. As a designer it reminds me of a dog chasing its own tail.

Thank you for your inputs my friend,
Wish you a very nice weekend.

Antonio

BluErf · 20th March 2005, 12:49 PM

Hello Antonio,

Have you considered placing the greneng (the design from the longer asymmetric end of the kris) design on the cutting edge side instead?

Like this:

Antonio Cejunior · 20th March 2005, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hello Antonio,

Have you considered placing the greneng (the design from the longer asymmetric end of the kris) design on the cutting edge side instead?

Like this:

Hello BluErf

I did consider it, but it would remind me of the Kukhri solution

I did however consider how to blend it with the scabbard.

Thank you for the suggestion though. It looks wonderful in your picture since it is not as long as the cut out I took exactly from the longer end

tom hyle · 20th March 2005, 01:41 PM

Another thing you might look into are the extended split off/welded on decorations that come off the blade base of some jimpuls and mandaus, as well as (similar) those on mambele ('Zande, 'Gombe, etc. sickle-sword; BTW I was recently told this is pronounced M'mambele; not sure whether to believe that; I've never seen it written that way)

20th March 2005, 12:49 PM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hello Antonio, Have you considered placing the greneng (the design from the longer asymmetric end of the kris) design on the cutting edge side instead? Like this: Attached Images

19th March 2005, 09:04 PM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Antonio, that's an often asked and discussed question here, and as to be expected, with a wide diversity of answers which shows that in the end it's subjective to one degree or another, to everyone. For example, just the name of this forum, "Ethnographic weapons". Being a US citizen, to me, everything except weapons peculiar to the US, which includes almost everything, is ethnographic, while the term, in relation to swords and such, at least to my understanding, includes everything except European bladed weapons. Again, most collectors seem to be purists, meaning a bladed weapon style coming from and used by the peoples that originated and used them, with value placed upon age, but again, a certain amount of subjectivity enters into it here as well, particularly, for instance, in cases such as areas of New Guinea that had still had relatively little outside contact as recently as the 1950's. This is where terms such as "contemporary", "reproduction", "imitation" and "tourist" enter into it and discussions become more heated and viewpoints more vehement. Many to most, I would imagine, would consider your beautiful piece a contemporary reproduction, no matter what the quality, care and skill that went into its construction, with some considering it all but valueless, or a curiosity at best, while others see and appreciate the worth of pieces made by artisans and craftsmen just as much as antiques of bygone times. Contemporary swords and knives of quality are often as valuable as as some of the antiques as well, particularly where attention is paid to remaining faithful to original specifications, such as using a good high carbon steel vs stainless, because of the inherent brittleness that usually comes as a trade off for being less susceptible to corrosion. In many cases, the true test, however, is often in how the piece is presented, as in the case of artificially aged reproductions being passed off as aged original antiques, which to me expresses the basic crux of the problem. If a piece is made so well that even expert scientific scrutiny is unable to differentiate it from an original, where is the harm, other than to an ego? I know that I'm in the minority here, and with a much broader range of interests and conditions of acceptability than most, but I myself think that you've made a beautiful creation there that would stand extremely well on it's own merits and be a worthy addition to any collection. Mike

20th March 2005, 05:51 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm in Timonium, and pressed for time as my laptop's battery is running low and the charger is home in Florida. However, let me say I really enjoy your interpretive designs, Antonio, and not just that dha which, of course, I really like. Some of your Japanese inspired swords are attractive to me in ways most Japanese swords are not. I'm one of those collectors that likes to aquire. However, I really obsess about only one particular form at a time. For some years, it has been dha, and I luxuriate in the seemingly endless variations and interpretations seen from the original culture. I think it's perfectly acceptable to arrive at one's own interpretation of a weapon form. These are things, after all, and so long as they are not presented as something they are not, I'm not interested in entertaining criticism of my "failure" to adhere to conservation of the original. My interpretation of a Thai darb designed with and executed by sword maker John Lundemo:

20th March 2005, 01:41 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Another thing you might look into are the extended split off/welded on decorations that come off the blade base of some jimpuls and mandaus, as well as (similar) those on mambele ('Zande, 'Gombe, etc. sickle-sword; BTW I was recently told this is pronounced M'mambele; not sure whether to believe that; I've never seen it written that way)